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Abstract HP

I just watched Live Free or Die Hard the other night.

That John McClain has a hellova lot of HP.

Bruce Willis got the crap beat out of him in almost every scene: punched, choked, blown out windows, dropped off buildings, thrown into some hard object, etc. He even got shot a couple times.

Interestingly enough, in the tunnel scene towards the beginning, he jumped out of a moving car and got really scraped up. After that scene, he was limping and bloody. The sidekick tells him he needs to go to the hospital... and of course Bruce brushed him off and keeps on truck'n. A couple scenes later, he was still bloodied up, but he wasn't limping any longer :) No hospital needed.

My point in all this is that a good adventure should be like Die Hard. Our characters are "hollywood" tough, like John McClain. They get hit and thrown around and generally beat up, but somehow they manage to avoid serious damage. You can tell when John McClain lost some HP due to a bullet, not because he was physically hit with it, but because he pulls back quickly and yells S@!t!!!! as his face is peppered with shattered concrete from a near miss!

Then, towards the end of the adventure, as HP is running low, the bullets start counting for real. One good shot and he's down.

This doesn't ease any of the "realism vs. abstract" debate, but I do find it easier to imagine when I compare my games to action movies.
 

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Dausuul said:
First of all, because it's a crappy definition. It's a vague handwavey thing. You can't sum it up in one quick sentence the way you can with virtually any other key statistic (except Armor Class, but that has its own problems); which means that when people are first learning D&D, they're apt to boil hit points down to their most obvious meaning, which is, "Hit points are how tough you are."

It would be more accurate to say "Hit points represent your resilience in the face of injury." But that's a little bit too high-Gygaxian for most people.

Dausuul said:
Second, they fluff it as representing all these abstract things, but then they go ahead and treat it like pure physical injury in the actual rules. Examples:

"Rider" effects on attacks, that only trigger if the attack inflicts damage (e.g., poison, energy drain). This implies that any attack which inflicts damage has actually connected and caused a wound--none of this "near-miss" business.

Like many people, you're operating under the mistaken assumption that "a hit is a hit is a hit." That's just not the case, even in real life. And certainly not in a game like D&D. By way of example, I got hit in the face with a sword last spring. I was not wearing any protective gear. What I got was a scratch and a black eye, and NOT a split skull. That was "luck," but, as D&D might say, "I lost a few hit points." A few minutes later I was effectively fine, but for a few moments, I was knocked down, bleeding, and dazed. On the other hand, if that sword had been poisoned, I'd have had said poison in my system.


Dausuul said:
Environmental hazards which do a given amount of damage per round. This implies that damage is independent of character; that is, 10 points of damage to Joe Commoner and 10 points of damage to Thorzod Tarrasquebane means they're taking the same amount of "punishment." Thorzod may soak it better, but he's getting hit just as hard.

The damage may be as severe, but since Thorzod is only losing a tiny fraction of his many hit points, and Joe Commoner is, well, dead, one can reasonably assume it isn't the same amount of punishment. Thorzod may be tougher, he may have a higher tolerance for the hazard, or he might just be narrowly avoiding the injury for some reason (divine grace, luck, whatever).

Dausuul said:
Healing magic which heals a given amount of damage. This implies that 10 points of damage represents the same degree of injury regardless of whether Joe or Thorzod suffered it. Plus, of course, it's called "heal," not "restore your mystical defense abstraction."

Natural healing is on a daily basis. This implies that hit points represent real injury, since you don't recover any hit points by taking a five-minute rest break.

Ah. In these instances you have me. These are the two wonky representations of hit points that lead people to believe they represent actual physical toughness. Assuming WotC fixes these, everything else can be explained in a proper narrative fashion.

Dausuul said:
Hit points do not change regardless of character status. If you're paralyzed or unconscious, you keep all your hit points. This implies that the ability to consciously dodge and defend is not a factor in your hit point total.

Tellingly, in a Coup de Grace situation, your hit points don't count at all. In fact, they're utterly, and completely worthless.

If the person doesn't take the time to make sure they finish you off properly, you might get lucky. The classic example is the execution style shot in the head where the bullet deflects off a particularly strong bone. Is this likely in the real world? No. If it happened, we'd think "gee, that guy was soooo lucky." And that's largely what hit points represent, the heroic luck, divine grace, or whatever that keeps a hero alive.

Dausuul said:
Constitution affects your hit points, but Wisdom and Dexterity do not. This implies that being physically durable is important to determining your hit point total, but willpower, perception, and quick reflexes are irrelevant.

Since hit points are partially about your ability to withstand damage or to push through with minor injuries, it stands to reason that Constitution would have the biggest effect.

D&D has no score to measure "heroic luck" save one - Level. It has no score to measure "the ability to roll with a blow," except by giving different abilities to classes with different fighting skill. Like giving the highest hit point totals to fighting classes and the lowest to classes who rarely get into a physical confrontation.

Dausuul said:
Some of these are "corner cases," but many of them are not. True, you don't encounter poison in every fight, or even in most fights. How many fights do you encounter healing magic in or after? Oh, yes--all of them (at least for a typical 3E game). How often do you apply your Constitution modifier when calculating hit points? Every time you calculate your hit points. If you don't want to think about what hit points mean, that's fine, but as soon as you start taking a serious look at them, you'll run into huge problems.

Ultimately, it is far, far simpler to explain hit points as "your character is crazy tough" and ignore all the half-assed efforts to cram other stuff in there. Everything in the rules, from 1E through 3.5E, has supported that view. (In fact, as far as I know, 3E has never even tried to claim that hit points mean anything other than raw toughness.)

One of the truly awful failings of 3E was its equation of hit points with raw toughness. It leads to the mistaken belief that a D&D character can take a direct hit from 300 arrows and survive. Such a character is obviously "inhuman."


Dausuul said:
I just hope the mechanics are consistent with whatever definition they settle on. If they want hit points to represent all this other stuff, then that needs to be factored into the rules.

Agreed. I think they can fix it all by altering just two things - healing magic and natural healing. Assuming those are consistent with the "abstract" nature of hit points, then the whole system is coherent.

Hit point aren't about your ability to dodge. They're about your ability to turn a lethal hit into a near (or even total) miss. But in doing so, you spend some of that precious luck.

When a PC actually gets physically injured, it's mostly because "his luck has run out."

Needless to say, the way I see hit points, a character could be sporting dozens (or even hundreds) of minor abrasions and bruises (or patched up cuts) and still be at full "hit points."

Probably there needs to be some limit to characters' ability to keep going indefinitely, but I don't know what that limit should be. Or even if it should be up to the game system to provide it.
 
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JohnSnow said:
One of the truly awful failings of 3E was its equation of hit points with raw toughness. It leads to the mistaken belief that a D&D character can take a direct hit from 300 arrows and survive. Such a character is obviously "inhuman."
What's wrong with a character surviving 300 arrows? The same character can also DO things not possible in real life also, in fact that's the point of the game. It's entirely possible within the game for a high level barbarian to beat an elephant to death bare-handed or wrestle a dire bear to the ground (but not the elephant since that would be 2 size categories different). A high level monk can make a running long jump of better than 70 feet if he maxes the skill. So what about unnatural resilience to injury is harder on suspension of disbelief than any of those things?
 

The problem with the subject of hit points is that D&D has always been inconsistent in how the rules deal with damage. Officially, hit points have always been an abstraction. This definition works fine with regard to combat, but falls apart when dealing with some other issues, especially falling damage.

Folks who want to change hp to being purely a function of physical toughness point to these outlaying examples and they can make a case. I'm personally unconvinced, but the argument flows from sound examples in the rules.

I have no problem with the falling damage as is. In the real world, we have many examples of people surviving falls from great heights. In my mind, these examples argue against hp = toughness.

The best argument I've heard in this thread to cover the examples of poison, was that hit points act as a divisor to the real damage done. A character with 200 hp takes 1/10 as much real damage from any effect than a character with 20 hit points. In this case, an attack with a rider (such as poison) still does damage to a high hp character, it juest does less - just enough in fact for the poison to get into the bloodstream.

I don't have a problem with players who want to play with a house rule that hp = toughness. But I would have a problem with changing a system that has worked for years (even if it has a few problems) just to satisfy the house rules some people use.

As for healing in 4e, I am hopeful that spells will heal a percentage of the character's hp. We know from an earlier article that the heal skill works this way, as does second wind.

In the new edition it seems likely that high level characters will heal more from the same effects than lower level characters.

There are many hp/damage mechanics other than D&D's abstract hp system.

1) Wound/Vitality (old Star Wars/D20 Traveller)
2) armor as DR; hp do not increase based on level (RQ, GURPS)
3) toughness save vs damage (True 20)

These are just three examples. I have played all of the games listed above. I even ran demos for one of them at conventions for years. I was never so glad to come back to D&D's abstract hp system. It may not be the best from a simulationist perspective. But I find it to be much more fun from a narrativist/gamist perspective.
 

HeavenShallBurn said:
What's wrong with a character surviving 300 arrows? The same character can also DO things not possible in real life also, in fact that's the point of the game. It's entirely possible within the game for a high level barbarian to beat an elephant to death bare-handed or wrestle a dire bear to the ground (but not the elephant since that would be 2 size categories different). A high level monk can make a running long jump of better than 70 feet if he maxes the skill. So what about unnatural resilience to injury is harder on suspension of disbelief than any of those things?

There is nothing wrong with this style of play. I just don't see the need to change the rules to accomodate it. If that's the style you like, you should houserule it - just like you did in previous editions.
 

kennew142 said:
There is nothing wrong with this style of play. I just don't see the need to change the rules to accomodate it. If that's the style you like, you should houserule it - just like you did in previous editions.
I wasn't making a case for changing what it says in the book. Like I have been throughout the thread I was just trying to get some consideration and answers from posters as to where their suspension of disbelief problems originate. The abstract/concrete HP divide has always been one of the issues in the game that fascinates me and this is a good place to get some info from the people who don't like concrete HP that could lead to a better understanding of what their problems with it are. There have been a couple of good answers to the question already.
 

Dausuul said:
Or 35 points of damage isn't enough to squash either character flat. Instead, it inflicts a severe concussion, internal bleeding, bone fragments in the brain, and assorted other injuries. The 9 hp character does what any normal human being would do and dies in seconds. The 100 hp character gets to his feet, wipes the blood out of his eyes, and keeps on going, because he's Just That Tough.

-24 hp is squashed flat (or the equivalent of -24 hp). mr .Hundred Hp doesn't have a tougher skull (assuming he staretd out as a normal person) the rock is still going to splatetr it into pulp just aas easily if he doesn't have somethigbn protectinghim... like the gods, luck, rolling with the blow
 

HeavenShallBurn said:
What's wrong with a character surviving 300 arrows? The same character can also DO things not possible in real life also, in fact that's the point of the game. It's entirely possible within the game for a high level barbarian to beat an elephant to death bare-handed or wrestle a dire bear to the ground (but not the elephant since that would be 2 size categories different). A high level monk can make a running long jump of better than 70 feet if he maxes the skill. So what about unnatural resilience to injury is harder on suspension of disbelief than any of those things?

Uh, if you got hit by 300 arrows, you wouldn't even have a body left, due to the tissue disruption they cause. You'd just be a sort of horrific mass of burst and ripped flesh, leaking bloody all over the place, unrecognizable as human.
 

Ruin Explorer said:
Uh, if you got hit by 300 arrows, you wouldn't even have a body left, due to the tissue disruption they cause. You'd just be a sort of horrific mass of burst and ripped flesh, leaking bloody all over the place, unrecognizable as human.
Yes but I'm not a high level character.
 

HeavenShallBurn said:
Yes but I'm not a high level character.

What I'm saying is, it's pretty unimaginable for me, that someone could survive being actually HIT by 300 arrows unless they were supernaturally empowered. Not just "epic" or "wuxia". Actually supernatually empowered. A dozen sure.

Still, in D&D a dozen arrows'll kill ya most of the time, so it's usually okay. Only rarely does it venture into the realm of the retarded.
 

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