Abstract Stunt System

[77IM]

This is a little house rule for "crazy stuff players do" that aren't covered by the rules. DMG p.42 is nice, but seems to focus on doing original activities, and doesn't have many guidelines for players attempting to gain an advantage.

(Credit where it is due: I was inspired by the work of Stalker0 [here], GlaziusF [here], iwatt [here] from the True20 boards, and the Trick system in Savage Worlds, and probably several other games.)

I'd love to know what you folks think before I run this past my group.

-- 77IM



STUNT
When a player tries to perform some crazy maneuver to increase their odds or gain some small advantage in combat, you can resolve the attempt as a stunt. The player must be able to clearly explain what they are doing, and the DM has to agree that it could potentially help.

STUNT: Part of another action

• Part of an Action: You must be doing some other thing (attacking, moving, using a skill or power, or some other valid action) in order to stunt. Even if your stunt fails, you must continue to carry out the full action that you intended.
• Describe the Stunt: Say what your character is doing above and beyond the expectations for the action you are taking. It helps to take into account the current situation and circumstances. Be creative!
• Once Per Encounter: You can't repeat the same stunt twice in the same encounter, but you can try a different stunt. Be creative!
• Once Per Round: You can't stunt twice in the same round.
• DM Decides the Type of Check: You must make either a skill check (against an opponent's defense, against the hard DC for the encounter's level, or opposed by an opponent's skill check) or an ability check (against the moderate DC for the encounter's level, or opposed by an opponent's ability check). The DM decides what sort of check you are making and what the DC (or opposed check) is based on the nature of your stunt.
• DM Decides the Consequences: If you succeed on your check, you get a +2 bonus to one of the following: attack rolls, skill and ability checks, defenses, damage, or speed. But if you fail, you take a -2 penalty to that same trait. For damage, the bonus or penalty is doubled at 11th level (to +4/-4) and tripled at 21st level (to +6/-6).
• Stunt Check: Resolve your check at the beginning of your action.
• Success: You gain the benefit described above for the duration of the action.
• Failure: You suffer the penalty described above for the duration of the action.
• Extreme Stunts: If you take a -5 penalty on your stunt check, the bonus you gain for success increases to +5, but the penalty for failure also increases to -5.
• Multiple Foes: If your stunt affects multiple enemies (you are trying to move past several of them, or gain some advantage on an area attack), make a single stunt check and compare it to the defense or opposed check of each foe separately.
• Speeding Up Stunt Checks: If stunt checks are slowing down game play, have all the opponents Take 10 on all of their skill and ability checks.
• Be Creative!: The DM can use the guidelines above to allow other sorts of bonuses and penalties. For example, the stunt bonus may apply to one of your allies instead of yourself, or it may apply to something like a saving throw, or the penalty may be applied to a different trait than what the bonus would apply to. The DM can also give a bonus to the stunt check for stunts that are particularly awesome. The goal of the stunt rules is to tangibly reward player creativity without requiring it or allowing it to overshadow other elements of the game (such as powers, feats, and magic items).

Examples:

Flick of the Wrist: "I swiftly draw a concealed weapon and attack with it, catching my foe off-guard!"
-- Part of a melee or thrown weapon attack; Thievery vs Perception; +2 to attack.

Body Slam: "I plow into my foe, driving him forcefully into the rock wall!"
-- Part of a charge or a melee attack against a foe adjacent to a wall; Strength vs Strength; +2 to damage.

Tumble: "I cartwheel past the enemies, avoiding their attacks!"
-- Part of movement through threatened squares; Acrobatics vs Reflex of each threatening foe; +2 to defenses.

Dwarf Ramp: "I run up the dwarf's shield and leap off his head to get extra distance!"
-- Part of a running jump; Acrobatics +2* vs Hard DC; +2 squares of distance when jumping. (*Due to awesomeness.)

Cantrip-Up: "I distract my foe with a ghost sound -- the roars and shouts of a second party coming up the corridor behind him -- and then magic missile him in the back of the head!"
-- Part of a magic missile attack; Arcana vs Insight; +2 attack.

Called Shot: "I take careful aim, shooting my foe right in the eyeball."
-- Part of a ranged attack; Perception -5 vs AC; +5 damage. On a failure, -5 attack (instead of -5 damage).


These are all just examples. The idea is for players to come up with stunts on-the-fly and the DM have a relatively balanced guideline to resolve them.

 

[77IM]

Streamlined version; it's just as complicated but no longer requires a check. Instead it is limited by how often you can do it, and what sort of stunts are available.

-- 77IM



STUNT
When a player tries to perform some crazy maneuver to increase their odds or gain some small advantage in combat, you can resolve the attempt as a stunt. The player must be able to clearly explain what they are doing, and the DM has to agree that it could potentially help.

STUNT: Part of another action

• Part of an Action: You must be doing some other thing (attacking, moving, using a skill or power, or some other valid action) in order to stunt.
  
• Describe the Stunt: Say what your character is doing above and beyond the expectations for the action you are taking. It helps to take into account the current situation and circumstances. Be creative!
  
• Once Per Encounter, +1 Per Milestone: You can only stunt once per encounter. After reaching your first milestone, you can stunt twice per encounter, and each additional milestone lets you stunt one additional time per encounter (for example, if you've reached your 4th milestone, you can stunt 5 times during your next encounter). Taking an extended rest resets your number of stunts to 1 per encounter.
  
• Once Per Round: You can't stunt twice in the same round.
  
• Requirement: Trained Skill or Highest Ability Score: You must have a trained skill relevant to the stunt you are performing -- an amazing feat of Acrobatics or Dungeoneering or Insight. You can suggest which trained skill you are using but ultimately the DM decides whether or not it applies. Alternatively, you can perform stunts based upon your highest ability score (if you have multiple scores that are tied, you can use any of them), such as a feat of Strength or clever use of Intelligence. The DM can decide that such a stunt requires a trained skill, however. For example, if you describe your stunt as a back flip, and want to base it on Dexterity, the DM can rule that such a stunt requires training in Acrobatics.
  
• DM Decides the Consequences: You get a +2 bonus to one of the following: attack rolls, skill and ability checks, defenses, damage, or speed. This bonus lasts for the duration of the action. For damage, the bonus is doubled at 11th level (to +4) and tripled at 21st level (to +6).
  
• Be Creative!: The DM can use the guidelines above to allow other sorts of bonuses and penalties. For example, the stunt bonus may apply to one of your allies instead of yourself, or it may apply to something like a saving throw. The DM can also increase the bonus for stunts that are particularly awesome. The goal of the stunt rules is to tangibly reward player creativity without requiring it or allowing it to overshadow other elements of the game (such as powers, feats, and magic items).

Examples:

Flick of the Wrist: "I swiftly draw a concealed weapon and attack with it, catching my foe off-guard!"
-- Part of a melee or thrown weapon attack; Requires training in Thievery; +2 to attack.

Body Slam: "I plow into my foe, driving him forcefully into the rock wall!"
-- Part of a charge or a melee attack against a foe adjacent to a wall; Requires high Strength; +2 to damage.

Tumble: "I cartwheel past the enemies, avoiding their attacks!"
-- Part of movement through threatened squares; Requires training in Acrobatics; +2 to defenses.

Dwarf Ramp: "I run up the dwarf's shield and leap off his head to get extra distance!"
-- Part of a running jump; Requires training in Acrobatics or Athletics; +3* squares of distance when jumping. (*Due to awesomeness.)

Cantrip-Up: "I distract my foe with a ghost sound -- the roars and shouts of a second party coming up the corridor behind him -- and then magic missile him in the back of the head!"
-- Part of a magic missile attack; Requires training in Arcana or Bluff; +2 attack.

Called Shot: "I take careful aim, shooting my foe right in the eyeball."
-- Part of a ranged attack; Requires training in Perception; +2 damage.


These are all just examples. The idea is for players to come up with stunts on-the-fly and the DM have a relatively balanced guideline to resolve them.

 

[Verys Arkon]

Thanks for this 77IM, I'm sending this around to my players now. I like how it codifies the 'DM's best friend' +2/-2 modifiers, and adds the gambling element with the extreme stunts.
You get XP!

 

[77IM]

Here are some more advanced options. (These are for the first system, the one where you make stunt checks.)

• Standard Action Stunts: A stunt normally needs to be part of another action, but sometimes a character just wants to apply a +2 bonus somewhere. In this case, the stunt itself is a standard action, and there is no consequence for failure.
• Defensive Stunts: If you get attacked, you can execute a stunt as an immediate interrupt. If you succeed, you get the bonus to your defense against that attack, but if you fail, you take the penalty to your defense. You must declare the stunt BEFORE the opponent makes his attack roll.
• Team Stunts: Instead of making a normal stunt check, you can base the success or failure of the stunt on another PC's action. It needs to be an action relevant to the stunt and which has a reasonable chance of failing, and it usually makes sense to ready an action so both actions happen at the same time.
• Enemy Stunts: Monsters and NPCs typically don't use the stunt rules -- stunts are meant to give the PCs more flexibility in their actions and more opportunities for creativity, and to showcase their skills a little better. However, at the DM's discretion, it may be appropriate for monsters (particularly elite and solo monsters) to perform stunts.

Here are some more examples.

Tarzan Swing: "I grab the rope and swing across the courtyard!"
- Part of movement; Acrobatics or Athletics -5 vs Hard DC; +5 speed.

Analyze Monster Weakness: "Do I know anything about these creatures that would help me kill them?"
- Part of an attack; Knowledge skill vs Hard DC; +2 attack or damage.

Combat Anticipation: "I wait until as he starts to attack, then sidestep out of the way. I'm totally cool."
- Part of a Total Defense; Insight vs Bluff; +2 to all defenses against that opponent for the duration of the Total Defense. On failure, the -2 to all defenses cancels the +2 from Total Defense, meaning that you have just wasted a standard action.

Active Block: "Right when the hobgoblin attacks, I block his weapon with mine."
- Readied action (standard action stunt); Strength or Dexterity vs Strength or Dexterity (whichever you and the enemy use for your weapon attacks); the enemy takes a -2 attack penalty on his next attack. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

Rally: "Come on! You can do it!"
- Standard action; Diplomacy vs Hard DC; +2 to one ally's next saving throw. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

Free Running: "I run up the wall and spring sideways through the window."
- Part of movement; Acrobatics -5 vs Hard DC; ignore difficult terrain. On failure, -5 speed.

Sand in the Eyes: "Right when he attacks me, I grab a handful of dirt and toss it in his face!"
- Immediate interrupt (defensive stunt); Thievery vs Insight; +2 defense.

You're All Alone: "We killed all of your allies. The boss can't save you now. See this bloody sack? That's his head."
- Part of an Intimidate check; Bluff +2* vs Insight; +2 Intimidate. (*Due to awesomeness.)

Hold Breath: "I hold my breath."
- Immediate interrupt when hit by a gas or cloud attack (defensive stunt); Endurance vs Hard DC; +2 defense.

Hammer and Nail: "After the rogue throws his dagger into the dragon, I hurl a throwing hammer right into the dagger, driving it deeper."
- Part of a throwing hammer ranged attack as a readied action triggered by the rogue throwing a dagger at the dragon; the rogue's attack vs the dragon's defense (team stunt); +2 damage. Because this is a team stunt, the rogue's normal attack roll substitutes for the stunt check; if the rogue missed, that counts as a failed stunt (-2 damage for the dwarf throwing the hammer).

Fire and Ice: "You use chill strike to freeze him, and then I'll cook him with flames of Phlegethos, and thermal stress fractures will damage him even more!"
- Part of a fire-based attack as a readied action triggered by an ally's ice-based attack; the ally's attack vs the enemy's defense (team stunt); +2 damage. Because this is a team stunt, the ally's normal attack roll substitutes for the stunt check; if the ally's ice attack missed, that counts as a failed stunt (-2 damage for the character's fire attack).

 

[Crashy75]

Subscribed.

 

[77IM]

Abstract Stunts vs DM's Best Friend

This system overlaps with the DM's discretionary power to hand out bonuses and penalties whenever he feels like it. Here are my thoughts on when to just give out free bonuses and when to use this system (or one like it). I'd love to hear everybody else's thoughts on the matter since different game play styles approach the "DM's Discretion" issue differently.


When to Apply Free Bonuses (DM's Best Friend)

1. It makes sense, and the situation is not covered by the rules:
The rules don't cover every situation and one of the easiest solutions is, as the DMG points out, to just apply +2/-2 modifiers as needed.
Example: A goblin has somehow been drenched in lamp oil, and the wizard casts burning hands... it makes sense that the burning hands is more effective against the oil-soaked, and there's nothing really in the rules explicitly forbidding or allowing bonuses or governing the interaction between fire and oil. So it's up to the DM to say, "Sure, +5 damage," or "Sure, ongoing 2 damage (save ends)," or whatever.

2. It's already costing the player something:
A player who spends a few actions or places themselves at risk in order to do something effective should be rewarded for their efforts with a minor bonus. This encourages players to do interesting stuff and adds verisimilitude to the game (the stunt rules themselves exist only to provide a balancing factor where none would otherwise exist).
Example: The fighter spends his standard action drenching the goblin with lamp oil...

3. It's just too undeniably awesome:
You know what I mean... sometimes a player declares their action and is met with cheers, laughter, and applause, because what they are attempting is just totally awesome. Give them a free +2 (or more). It will encourage them to do really fun stuff, and helps them to succeed (since such moves are often more entertaining when successful).
Example: Lassoing the dragon and leaping onto his back! Tossing the big boss's words back at him before delivering the killing blow! Stuff like that -- the sort of fun and memorable moments that really good games are made of. When everybody is "in the moment," simply giving out a free bonus really is the most balanced and most playable option.


When to Use the Abstract Stunt System

1. It makes sense, but this situation is already covered by the rules and they don't mention anything like that:
The 4e rules are meant to work together well and be easy to use and be fairly balanced, so they "gloss over" a lot of minor interactions. It's sometimes unclear whether an interaction is omitted because it's really not important enough to worry about, or because the DM is expected to resolve it using "DM's Best Friend." In this case, you can use the stunt system as a sort of middle ground: you allow the bonus, but with some control mechanisms built in.
Example: A dragonborn wants to bull rush a gnome, and argues that because the dragonborn has so much more mass, he should get a bonus to push the gnome. However, there are already rules for pushing and for size and one could argue that both characters' stature is already factored into their statistics as much as it needs to be. So as a compromise, you can allow it as a stunt:
Gnome Punt: "I drop-kick the annoying bugger!"
- Part of a bull rush against a target smaller than you; Strength vs Strength; +2 squares of distance. On a failure, you can't attempt the bull rush (since you would be pushing for 0 squares).

2. It seems like a repeatable tactic:
One problem with applying bonuses purely for things that "make sense" is that players will try to get that bonus all the time and it will bog the game down and/or imbalance things. Plus, you have to keep track of which things get which bonuses. Using stunts allows players to have their tricks, but places limits on how often they can use them.
Example: The party rogue declares that they are going to carry 8 concealed daggers, so as to always get the +2 bonus for drawing a concealed weapon. Plus they will have a bag of sand to throw in peoples' eyes so that they always get a +2 bonus to AC against melee attacks. It's fine for the rogue to seek out these bonuses but if you allow them all the time it would get overpowered fast. But using the abstract stunts forces the rogue to only use each trick once per encounter at most, and with a chance that it may backfire.

3. You want to say "Yes" to your players, but you're just not sure about the consequences of a decision:
Is it balanced? Will it bog down the game? Does it obsolete some power or feat? Sometimes you just don't know. The abstract stunt system imposes strict controls on those elements of game play and instead pushes the issue back onto the player: What exactly are you trying to do, and how cool is it? So if a player is begging for bonuses, instead of disallowing, you can say, "Sure, we'll resolve it as a stunt."
Example: A player wants to use Acrobatics to backflip past her enemies and avoid OAs. What if you allowed someone trained in Acrobatics to make a check and get a bonus against OAs, whenever they felt like? You'd be seeing a lot more checks, and Acrobatics would be a considerably stronger skill. But tumbling past enemies seems like a cool and sensible use of Acrobatics and is something your player wants to do... So you compromise by making it a stunt, putting the decision of whether it's worth it back in the players' hands.


The bottom line, is that a little +2 bonus here and there isn't going to break anything and won't over-complicate the game. That's what DM's Best Friend is for -- unusual situations. For things that seem like they might come up often enough to be game-changers ("wait, you mean I can push small creatures up to 3 squares?"), use the abstract stunt system.

-- 77IM

 

[77IM]

Another advanced option

• Effect Stunts: Sometimes you don't want to apply a bonus to your roll, you want to apply some effect (like knocking your opponent down). This counts as an extreme stunt (-5 penalty on your check, or you face a harder DC than usual). If you fail, then something similarly bad happens to you (like, you fall down).

Examples:

Disarm: "I twist my blade around, wrenching the sword from his grasp!"
- Standard action targeting an adjacent enemy; basic attack -5 vs basic attack; your foe drops his weapon in an adjacent square of your choice. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

Knockdown: "Lowering my shoulder, I plow into my foe with all my weight."
- Standard action targeting an adjacent enemy; Strength vs Fortitude; the target falls prone. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

Trip: "I use fancy footwork to overbalance my opponent."
- Standard action targeting an adjacent enemy; Dexterity vs Reflex; the target falls prone. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

Takeaway: "I grab it right out of his hands!"
- Standard action targeting an adjacent enemy; Strength vs Reflex or Fortitude (whichever is better); you now hold one of your opponent's items. No consequence for failure (standard action stunt).

 

[Stalker0]

Wondeful idea 77IM. When I wrote my own stunt system, I decided later on that I wanted it to be more free form, and this is great.

A couple of suggestions:

1) You may want to drop the bonus for damage, simply because attack bonuses are normally better, and so you don't have to worry about complicating the numbers at 11th and 21st.

2) If you want to add to this, I would focus on helping the DM decide the DCs to use. I think the basic system is very clean and easy to use, the hardest part is for the DM to decide what kind of check to allow.

 

[Zelc]

I don't think the bonus should scale. Attack bonuses and defenses in 4E scale roughly at the same rate, such that there is a roughly constant hit rate across the levels. Thus, stunting will be much better in the higher levels than in the lower levels. Same for skill and ability checks. Speed could scale, but I think it'd be simpler if it didn't.

By the way, what happens when you make an extreme stunt in the epic level? Do you gain a +5 bonus, a +6 bonus, or a +11 bonus?

 

[77IM]

To clarify, only the damage bonus scales; no other bonuses scale. I agree that the scaling damage is problematic, but I don't want to remove it because I want the system to be as flexible as possible and damage bonuses often seem appropriate. +2 also isn't a very impressive damage bonus. I've thought of increasing it to +5, but don't want people to confuse it with an extreme stunt; or changing it to +2 per die (instead of increasing with tier), but that raises questions about magic missile and falchions and other multi-die powers.


The theory behind the DCs is that players will probably pick stunts that relate to their best skills and abilities, and that if they do, they should have a better than 50% chance of succeeding. Thus, the following matchups are possible:

Skill check vs Hard DC (from DMG p.42): If you are trained in the skill and have a reasonable ability mod, your bonus+10 should exceed the DC.

Skill check vs Monster defense: Monster defenses are in the general neighborhood of the Hard DC but don't always match up, depending on the monster and on the defense you are up against. This is often favorable to the PC at low levels, but nasty at high levels. I like using defenses, though, because they make sense and are pre-calculated.

Skill check vs Monster skill modifier +10 (basically, the monster's "passive skill"): This depends heavily on whether the monster has that skill or not. If the player is using their best skill, few monsters will be able to match them -- but many monsters will have crappy opposed skills, so this is often greatly in the PC's favor. The DM can mitigate this somewhat by picking the best of several monster skills (like, the monster can use Athletics or Acrobatics, whichever is better; or Perception or Insight, whichever is better).

Ability check vs Medium DC (from DMG p.42): This has less variance than skills because there's no possibility of a +5 Trained bonus. However, if you are using your good ability it should still be in the PC's favor.

Ability check vs Monster ability modifier +10 (basically, the monster's "passive ability"): If the PC is using their best ability, and the monster isn't using their best ability, this is usually in the PC's favor. But, there's a lot of variety in monster ability scores, so this one could be risky for the PC.


It's tricky because skills, abilities, attacks, defenses, and AC all have slightly different "offsets" (e.g., AC and weapon attacks tend to be a few points higher than non-AC-defenses and implement attacks), and rise at different progressions (e.g., monster defenses go up with level, but skills with 1/2 level, so a player needs to really pump a lot of feats and magic items into their skills to keep pace). Also, if you allow players to target the monster's weakest skill, that's a huge advantage.

If anyone has suggestions to improve this aspect of the system, I am all ears. I value keeping the system flexible and quick to use over mathematical precision, but I also want to make the stunts balanced, so that they are not too easy or too hard.

-- 77IM