AC and description

[UngeheuerLich]

I have bought KotS and i am a bit worried about monster descriprion, stats and defenses:

I know, they don´t add up... but a bit more consistancy would be nice:

So why do kobolds with Dex 17 and lether armor have an AC of 13?, and a kobold with 13 dex and only a dragonscale as a shield have AC 18?

also: why is slingers AC lower than reflex although they wear lether armor? I am a bit irritated...

 

[med stud]

Why not? If you need an explanation, you can always settle with kobolds being special cases.

 

[Phaezen]

This is a feature, not a bug. From what I understand of monsters for 4e they have ac and defenses appropriate for thier level and role. This is independant of any armour or equipment they are carrying, unlike 3.x where the ac was worked out by a formula depending on dex, armour, shield, magical equipment and class abilities.

The main advantage of this is not having to load monsters up with minor magical items to bump thier ac to a reasonable level to challenge the pc's, with the knock on effect of bags of holding full of +1 armour, shields, amulets etc. The same aplies for thier attacks and damage.

I hope this helps

Phaezen

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This is a feature, not a bug. From what I understand of monsters for 4e they have ac and defenses appropriate for thier level and role. This is independant of any armour or equipment they are carrying, unlike 3.x where the ac was worked out by a formula depending on dex, armour, shield, magical equipment and class abilities.

The main advantage of this is not having to load monsters up with minor magical items to bump thier ac to a reasonable level to challenge the pc's, with the knock on effect of bags of holding full of +1 armour, shields, amulets etc. The same aplies for thier attacks and damage.

I hope this helps

Phaezen

nope, it doesn´t.

I have actually no problem with AC so high without armor, i don´t even want a formula, but i want SOME kind of consitancy:

slingers don´t need that lether armor. They would also do fine, if their description doesn´t mention it. Dragon shields would not suffer if they are described wearing hide armor:

now it looks like this: those kobolds wear hide armor and a small shield (AC 15) they are followed by naked goblins wearing only a dragon scale shield (AC 18)
very agile kobolds stand at the back, wearing lether (AC 13)

it would be much better when armors are swapped a bit (hide on dragonscales, lether on minions).

 

[mach1.9pants]

Yep in 4E their armour is just window dressing or costume. It is just there to give them a look. NPCs etc do not follow the PCs rules. If it bothers you describe them in the appropriate armour to get the number in the stat block but it really makes no difference to how they interact with the PCs. And after all, that is all the monsters are for. Interacting with (/dying for) PCs.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why not? If you need an explanation, you can always settle with kobolds being special cases.

That wearing armor reduces AC?

Yeah, i will just describe dragon shields with scale armor or something... doesnt´t hurt anyone, would fit their role and i would not consider checking if then numbers would add up

 

[AZRogue]

I think Defenses are more affected by the creatures Role and Level than by what he's wearing. I think their armor is basically window dressing. We'll know more, of course, when we can see the tables used to create the monsters, but I'm pretty sure that we shouldn't worry so much about how the equipment the monsters are wearing are affecting them and, instead, concentrate more on making sure the monster has viable numbers for his Role and Level.

 

[That One Guy]

According to some dated stuff I read, the Kobold Dragon Shields wear Scale Armour and Heavy shields. Is this different in KotS?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They are described without scale armour^^ and i don´t have much more to complain... really...

I actually think that the description text is nicer than the equipment text we have seen in the MM excerpts^^ But they really should be more careful when editing texts...

and once again: minion stats are lower than epected for a monster of their level, and some minions of the same type have different abilities...)

 

[Kzach]

Yeah, like others have said, just make it up if it's an issue.

For instance, the minions with low AC could be the runts of the kobold litters. Sure, they have decent Dexterity, but they might have knobly knees. So they're generally quick to react but may not be fast on their feet. And the dragonshields are like the tough guys, born with thicker skin, honoured by their dragon ancestors.

Or something like that. Whatever works

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yeah, maybe...

still i have a bad feeling, when AC is so much LOWER then expected...

I am much less worried about those really tough dragonshields as i am about the slingers... maybe i just change their AC to 15, which seems reasonable... no other Monster i have seen has such a low AC... I would even say it is a typo or oversight if i didn´t knew better...

 

[TheSleepyKing]

It's a fudge, but I don't think it any more of a fudge than 3e's "natural armor" bonus (in which boar skin was actually stronger than chainmail). In 4e, though, rather than try try rationalize monster AC, they've just said screw it -- lets make the AC this and be done with it. I like this approach -- it's more honest if nothing else.

 

[PeelSeel2]

It is very refreshing to be able to look at a stat block and not have to justify the numbers behind it. It reminds me so much of BD&D and AD&D with their 'black box' monsters. Long live the 'Black Box' monsters!! Live long Dragonborn females with BOOBS!!

 

[thalmin]

It isn't so far off from what affects the PCs anyway. Defenses, including AC, scale with level. Why does a 5th level character have a better AC than a 1st level of same race, class, abilities, and equipment? Because he's harder to hit. He knows how to avoid the blows. Same for monsters. Avoiding blows doesn't have to be a function of level, but of style, like fighting defensively. Some are just more tricksy.

 

[Vrecknidj]

It is very refreshing to be able to look at a stat block and not have to justify the numbers behind it.

This is what I've been doing all along. Thank goodness the system has finally caught up.

Dave

 

[Wormwood]

It is very refreshing to be able to look at a stat block and not have to justify the numbers behind it

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Lizard]

I still find it one of the most annoying things about 4e, in large part because its unnecessary -- for precisely the reasons mentioned. What's so hard about setting a 'natural' armor bonus for a monster, then making sure the armor he wears doesn't raise that beyond the expected limits (or adjusting the XP value slightly if it does)?

(Honestly, I suspect the problem is that the stat blocks are erroneous, and that people are trying to justify them by saying it's intended design. Why bother giving the kobolds armor if it's basically meaningless? Just say they have hides of varying thickness and be done with it.)

Or, one could argue that 4e allows for a great deal of subtle variation, and some kobolds wear 'inferior leather armor' that provides a lower bonus.

 

[Jawa1972]

according to the customizing monster excerpt armor does follow a formula its just worn armor is not the main factor. There is a base AC from level, A bonus from Dex or Int if in light or no armor and then the armor modifier.

For example, an ogre savage normally has an Armor Class of 19 (it’s assumed to be wearing crude hide armor). Its effective armor bonus is +5 (19 – 10 – 4 [Dex]). Giving the ogre chainmail instead would improve its AC by 1 to 20, since the armor’s +6 bonus is 1 higher than this number.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

wow, noone adresses my issue:

its not the fudge of getting higher AC which bothers me.

It is the LOWER AC of the Minions and the slinger.

17 DEX, lether armor and end up with 13 AC?

with a reflex score of 14?

This is the most annoying thing. And when you have a direct comparison between two kobolds, the slingers with armor and dragonscale shields with no armor, how should the players judge by the description alone which is the foe with higher AC.

Its not the system which is wrong, just THIS particular example. The goblin description (even if they also don´t "add up") seems to match their RELATIVE AC compared whithin that creature group.

Problem: high agile armored slingers, much easier to hit than low agile unarmored guys...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Using armor change guidelines, a slingers effective armor bonus is: 13 - 10 - 3(Dex) = 0 ...