Do you think that Evasive footwork + Bait and Switch + Defensive duelist + Relentless would end up being a danger for bounded accuracy (+ any other combos not still discovered) or not? I haven't seen any changes in the way that bonuses stack in 5.24 so this got me worried. I suppose altering all those kind of features to use the same type of action (reaction) would work as a houserule, but maybe I'm exaggerating the problem?
D&D (2024) AC stacking and bounded accuracy
- Thread starter serch
- Start date
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
A few things.
First, there is no bounded accuracy on the player side of things. The designers built the game such the game makes no assumptions at all about what the PC numbers are.
Second, I haven't done the math to figure out how high that AC is, but if you want to know if it is too much, you need to look at the typical attack bonus of monsters in your level(CR) range. That will give you an idea of whether or not it's too much.
Third, what amounts to being too much will vary considerably from table to table. Some groups view balance as the holy grail and place it upon an altar, because they enjoy the game more when everything is balanced with one another. Other groups take that holy grail and toss it into the trash heap, not caring if things are unbalanced, because they view those things as really fun. Yet more groups are in-between. You'll need to figure out(if you don't know already) where your group lies on that spectrum.
Last edited:
abirdcall
(she/her)
It's fine for any 1 character to have super high AC.
When the rest of the party dies they will soon follow.
If the entire party concentrates on having high AC then they will lack some abilities to handle situations that other parties could.
The nice thing about balance in D&D is that challenges are varied so a hyper specialized party will make some encounters trivial while being helpless in others.
The only issue I see is that if it is too 'cheap' to get that high AC.
When the rest of the party dies they will soon follow.
If the entire party concentrates on having high AC then they will lack some abilities to handle situations that other parties could.
The nice thing about balance in D&D is that challenges are varied so a hyper specialized party will make some encounters trivial while being helpless in others.
The only issue I see is that if it is too 'cheap' to get that high AC.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
That's a pretty eye-opening statement to make. Basis or source for this?
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Let me find it. There was an article put out by WotC.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
[D&D Next] Legends and Lore: Bounded Accuracy
Today’s Legends & Lore article from Rodney Thompson goes into detail on something that the design team calls the bonded accuracy system. I’ll let Rodney’s words do the explain…
philgamer.wordpress.com
"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.
Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don’t have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.
This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."
Feats, spells, items, etc. are all acquired while gaining levels. Note how they balance around PC abilities, hit points, damage, etc. and not accuracy or defense.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It’s worth noting that bounded accuracy as described in that first L&L didn’t really end up making it to publication, at least not exactly. Part of that initial idea was that it would enable different classes to have different attack bonus progressions, but by the end of the playtest process, they ended up with a unified proficiency bonus across all classes anyway. Really, what bounded accuracy ended up meaning was that target numbers don’t inflate to the point where you need to be a certain level to have a chance of succeeding. That’s why, for example, DC 20 is considered hard, even though a specialized character can pretty easily get to the point where they only fail a DC 20 check on a 1 or 2 (or with a bonus like Bless or Bardic Inspiration, only on a 1 with both dice). Because the difficulties don’t assume increasing bonuses on the player’s side.[D&D Next] Legends and Lore: Bounded Accuracy
Today’s Legends & Lore article from Rodney Thompson goes into detail on something that the design team calls the bonded accuracy system. I’ll let Rodney’s words do the explain…
"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.
Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don’t have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.
This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."
Feats, spells, items, etc. are all acquired while gaining levels. Note how they balance around PC abilities, hit points, damage, etc. and not accuracy or defense.
Last edited:
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
The incarnation changed a bit, but their design goal didn't. When you make a custom monster, the game doesn't give a fig about the PC bonuses.
Argyle King
Legend
[D&D Next] Legends and Lore: Bounded Accuracy
Today’s Legends & Lore article from Rodney Thompson goes into detail on something that the design team calls the bonded accuracy system. I’ll let Rodney’s words do the explain…
"The basic premise behind the bounded accuracy system is simple: we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game that the player’s attack and spell accuracy, or their defenses, increase as a result of gaining levels. Instead, we represent the difference in characters of various levels primarily through their hit points, the amount of damage they deal, and the various new abilities they have gained. Characters can fight tougher monsters not because they can finally hit them, but because their damage is sufficient to take a significant chunk out of the monster’s hit points; likewise, the character can now stand up to a few hits from that monster without being killed easily, thanks to the character’s increased hit points. Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases.
Now, note that I said that we make no assumptions on the DM’s side of the game about increased accuracy and defenses. This does not mean that the players do not gain bonuses to accuracy and defenses. It does mean, however, that we do not need to make sure that characters advance on a set schedule, and we can let each class advance at its own appropriate pace. Thus, wizards don’t have to gain a +10 bonus to weapon attack rolls just for reaching a higher level in order to keep participating; if wizards never gain an accuracy bonus, they can still contribute just fine to the ongoing play experience.
This extends beyond simple attacks and damage. We also make the same assumptions about character ability modifiers and skill bonuses. Thus, our expected DCs do not scale automatically with level, and instead a DC is left to represent the fixed value of the difficulty of some task, not the difficulty of the task relative to level."
Feats, spells, items, etc. are all acquired while gaining levels. Note how they balance around PC abilities, hit points, damage, etc. and not accuracy or defense.
Thanks for posting that.
I had often suspected that "bounded accuracy" means something very different than what I would normally understand those words to mean (or even what they were implied to possibly mean in the 5e Playstest).
It appears, from reading that, that my suspicion was accurate.
Not exactly natural language
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Yeah. That article highlights why magic items can unbalance things so much. In my first campaign DMing 5e, I handed out magical weapons pretty freely, and the result was that the group just blew through encounters. In my second campaign I instituted a rule where +0 magic weapons didn't go through resistance. That way I could give out magic weapons without destroying the balance.
I still occasionally give out a magic weapon with a plus to it, but I'm very careful about it.
Similar Threads
