"Accident of Math"???

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Actually I don't even think Canada has yaks...

Of course it has yaks.

If it didn't, what would the Royal Canadian Kilted Yaksmen ride?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I think to really understand what's meant by this, you need to know enough statistics to apply negative binomial distributions to the ranges of modifiers and targets ...

That would seem useful in determining how many rounds combat will last at any given level, or how often a fighter will need to hit and how much damage he will need to do to kill a given monster in N rounds (swings, attempts, etc.).

I loves me some WoTC maths. Bring it on, boys.

 

[jeffh]

That would seem useful in determining how many rounds combat will last at any given level, or how often a fighter will need to hit and how much damage he will need to do to kill a given monster in N rounds (swings, attempts, etc.).

I loves me some WoTC maths. Bring it on, boys.

That's roughly what I was about to say. For the subject of this thread, it's overkill.

 

[Incenjucar]

...So, all that fairly obscure chatter aside... I think the issue is that in early and late levels, your special combat modifiers are nigh meaningless because you end up with "Only hit on a natural 20" (which means you could have a -5000 to hit for all it matters) or "Only miss on a 1" (which means you can have +5000 to hit for all it matters).

In the "Sweet Spot" these modifiers are actually significant, because they do not overwhelm the range of the dice. That is, a +5 to hit is significantly different from a +8 to hit, when it means hitting on a 17 or a 14, but the difference is meaningless when, regardless of which modifier is at play, your hit is ONLY determined by the 1 or 20 of the die roll.

Am I right?

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

...So, all that fairly obscure chatter aside... I think the issue is that in early and late levels, your special combat modifiers are nigh meaningless because you end up with "Only hit on a natural 20" (which means you could have a -5000 to hit for all it matters) or "Only miss on a 1" (which means you can have +5000 to hit for all it matters).

In the "Sweet Spot" these modifiers are actually significant, because they do not overwhelm the range of the dice. That is, a +5 to hit is significantly different from a +8 to hit, when it means hitting on a 17 or a 14, but the difference is meaningless when, regardless of which modifier is at play, your hit is ONLY determined by the 1 or 20 of the die roll.

Am I right?

Absolutely. I made this exact point back in Post #13 .

 

[MerricB]

...So, all that fairly obscure chatter aside... I think the issue is that in early and late levels, your special combat modifiers are nigh meaningless because you end up with "Only hit on a natural 20" (which means you could have a -5000 to hit for all it matters) or "Only miss on a 1" (which means you can have +5000 to hit for all it matters).

Am I right?

No.

I've played D&D from 1st to 20th level, and I've always seen PCs being able to hit on 11s. The value of the bonus isn't significant. It's that it's unpredictable at higher levels - that it might range from +10 to +30 - that causes the problem. Try setting a DC when you don't know what it might be between two same-level characters.

Cheers!

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Try setting a DC when you don't know what it might be between two same-level characters.

WHAT? The DC should be set independently of the characters! Otherwise you might as well flip a coin!

 

[MerricB]

WHAT? The DC should be set independently of the characters! Otherwise you might as well flip a coin!

It never is set independently. Well, it sort of can be, but in general...

PCs need a challenge. Sending a Great Wyrm Red at the PCs might be setting the challenge independently of the PCs, but it isn't going to be fun. The entire system of Challenge Ratings is there to say "This monster vs these PCs will be fair. Probably."

It also applies to traps.

The DCs of the Search, Disable and Save are all linked to the CR - if you make the Save 10 higher, then the CR is going to go up.

And don't forget that AC is also a DC.

Now, when you write an adventure, you often do it for your PCs, so you set level-appropriate threats. It's not ever CR=APL, there'll be a range, but within that range you should also get a range of DCs (and ACs) that are achievable, if occasionally difficult.

The trouble is, as PCs get higher, you can't even guess how much they'll vary. I've seen two 13th fighters... one with a AC of 20, one with an AC of 35. To-hit numbers and skill bonuses can similarly vary - skills especially.

So, how do you set a fair DC when you don't know what level PC would be likely to make that check?

Now, I'm all for rewarding players who specialise, but the gap becomes too big.

Cheers!

 

[AffableVagrant]

When hundreds of people have noted the same thing about something as objective as math, it would behoove you to be very certain of your argument before calling thier collective reasoning nonsense.

Totally aside from the topic, I just dug this quote, and had to give a digital high-five to Celebrim.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

No.

I've played D&D from 1st to 20th level, and I've always seen PCs being able to hit on 11s. The value of the bonus isn't significant. It's that it's unpredictable at higher levels - that it might range from +10 to +30 - that causes the problem. Try setting a DC when you don't know what it might be between two same-level characters.

Cheers!

That's true, but the point made by Incenjucar is also correct.