AD&D Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guides - are they good buys?

[Delta]

AD&D Dungeoneer's and Wilderness Survival Guides - are they good buys?

That's a big "NO" from me. Trying to incorporate those books into my AD&D in college rather specifically ruined my game, actually. They have far too much minutiae incorporated that don't have good game machanics to back them up. (Examples from WSG: A page on real-world specifics on lighting a campfire and how much heat it gives, in a table by feet. A gradation system for infravision intensity on a 10-point scale, which to this day I think started souring so many people on infravision that it got yanked from 3E. A page on round-by-round effects of fighting during an earthquake: how often would that be used? A complicated weather system that gives you daily temperatures in a degree range that fails to sync up directly with the temperature effects tables. Etc.)

The only bright spot, looking back, was the DSG Underdark setting outline. The dungeoneering skills are all now more elegantly incorporated into 3E core skills. The 3E weather system in the DMG seems much more elegant and playable to me.

The DSG and WSG are specifically the two D&D books that pain me to think that I owned, and really wish I had the time back from trying to use them.

 

[cildarith]

These two books are not worth the paper they're printed on, IMO.

 

[Wik]

Well, I like both books, but not for the rules.

The WSG's campaign guide (how to set up a map) served me well back in my 2e days, and helped with drawing more than a few maps (at least until the Worldbuilder's guide came out). The DSG had a bunch of neat stuff on life in the underdark, underdark cultures, cave formations, and the like. The WSG had a bit too much "Crunch" for me to use in d20, and I didn't use it in 2e, either - although the "how many people a fire can warm" thing was actually boiled down and used in game. And I used to roll up random weather for one campaign, using the system in the WSG.

I think the DSG is a better buy for d20 play, because a lot of the stuff is setting neutral and would be an excellent resource for any campaign. However, the rules from both books are a bit clunky, I think - you'd be better off without 'em.

 

[Garnfellow]

My underdark is the DSG sample underdark.

It's got some great adventure locations and predates the hostile FR underdark takeover.

I always wanted to do a mashup of the DSG sample underdark with the one presented in the D series modules -- basically, take the great physical locations detailed in the DSG and add in the superb description and flavor of the D series. I want my underworlds mysterious, ancient, and sprawling, haunted by foul, elder things that lurk in the inky blackness.

I thought the DSG's flavor was rather sterile and bland compared to the stuff from Descent into the Depths -- but the DSG's isometric maps blew D1's crappy 2-D hex scheme out of the water.

One thing that really bugged me about DSG? It completely missed all the cool Fiend Folio monsters in its descriptions of the underworld (well, other than drow and kuo-toa). I don't know if Doug Niles didn't own a copy of the FF, or if Don Turnbull once kicked his kitten, or what, but it's a pretty weird omission: much of the FF was heavily influenced from the D series. Just think of all the classic underdark monsters taken straight from the FF: dark creepers, dark stalkers, gibberlings, grell, grimlocks, hook horrors. That's just off the top of my head; I'm sure there are plenty more.

 

[WSmith]

The only reason I have them is to have the complete collection of OAD&D hardcover books.

Honestly I haven't cracked opne these books in decades. I just remmeber not really caring for them. Most of the stuff, like weather, I like to run off the cuff. The WSG also has a "personal body tempature" system for the use of armor and clothing in climates. I tried using it once but it was way too clunky and slowed the game almost to a halt.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Are those books good? Yes. They provide a pretty in-depth look at the environments that most games gloss over.

Which means if your game glosses over these issues, the books are pointless.

For my game I found them quite useful, but have converted to D20 and use Wildscape, which covers much of the same ground but in nice D20 format.

Dungeneering guide would be difficult to convert, but does provide some nice pointers on climbing and other odd adventuring skills needed underground. Good resource material but I would not bother trying to convert the mechanics.

 

[Lancelot]

Never owned the WSG (...and after skimming through it, never had the desire to own it).

But I'm quite fond of the DSG. The "sample underdark" presented in the book is, to date, one of the best examples of its kind that I've seen. Some rich ideas there, and the isometric maps were quite nice - for the era. If you're not familiar with the section, it's basically 30-odd underdark regions described at a high-level (environment, special features, common monsters, etc) with some interesting hooks. Somewhat similar to latter half of the Forgotten Realms 3e Underdark manual, but it's setting-generic. No mention of faezress or phaerimm or menzoberranzan... just some classic D&D tropes like an underdark necropolis run by multiple liches, and mysterious cloaker lairs, and vast caverns contested by various humanoid races... and the odd giant basilisk thrown in for good measure.

I've also got good value from the mining rules (one of my players decided to build and run a mine), the descriptions of natural cave features (...although this can be found in many other sources) and the artwork. For the era, I always thought that DSG had some reasonably evocative art - the picture of adventurers fleeing from some hulking fiend, the cross-section of natural caverns near the front, and that semi-infamous piece with the bikini babes behind the rock...