AD&D First Edition inferior?

[ColonelHardisson]

What exactly does that mean? More supplements, errata, confusing Sage advice and FAQs in 2 years than 1e had in its entire 'run'? You call that elegant? Fluffy and insubstantial terms like this do little to promote fair comparison between the games.

1e didn't release much, if any errata ever. You can't be suggesting it didn't need any. This just means that more effort is being made in this regard now than it was then. The supplements I'll address below.

So that's why they keep releasing all those splat books, supplements, 3rd party class/race books, etc etc etc.

Rich, with all respect, this is a stalking horse. "They" aren't releasing the third party books. The d20 publishers are. I don't think anyone seriously thinks each and every book and supplement needs to be bought or used. That's been made clear from the beginning. It's been emphasized time and again - the Core Books are the only ones you need; that's how the game was designed. There are options out there to fit any taste. I don't know why that's a bad thing.

 

[Piratecat]

Re: women get +2 to CON?

Returning to the hijack ... I mean fascinating discussion of women's physical capacities…

You were told by a moderator, Dinkeldog, not to hijack the thread. So don't, please.

 

[chatdemon]

I defy you to explain THAC0 in twenty words or less, including every possible complication.

THAC0 (by class, adjusted for magic and abiities) minus target's AC is the roll needed on d20 to hit.

19 words.

Complications? To thaco? huh?

THACO for dummies:
Your AC is 5, My Thaco is 17.
I subtract your AC from my thaco to get my target., in this case 12.

I roll D20, to that result i add the bonuses i may have from abilities or magic. and subtract any similar penalties. If my result is equal to or greater than my target, I hit.

BAB for dummies:
Your AC is 15, My BAB is 3.
I subtract my BAB from your AC to get my target, in this case 12.

I roll D20, to that result i add the bonuses i may have from abilities or magic. and subtract any similar penalties. If my result is equal to or greater than my target, I hit.


I'm not seeing a huge amount of difference there....

Let me state clearly for the record that I am not bashing 3e, I like it, I play it. I'm just sticking up for 1e here.

 

[RobNJ]

THAC0 (by class, adjusted for magic and abiities) minus target's AC is the roll needed on d20 to hit.

19 words.

Complications? To thaco? huh?

I'm talking about looking up your THAC0 on the chart, etc. In other words my explanation for attacks of opportunity didn't cover every possible situation, but neither can any description of THAC0 that limits itself to 20 words or less. That's all I meant.

 

[chatdemon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AD&D First Edition inferior?

If anything, 3E made it unneccesary to have seperate classes in order to replicate historical ideas. You want a cavalier? Put some skill points into ride and diplomacy, take mounted combat feats, and roleplay him like a cavalier. No need for a seperate mechanic.

Uhhh...
Explain to me again why we need prestige classes then? Or hell, lets go classless!

 

[MerricB]

I'm not seeing a huge amount of difference there....

G'day, Rich!

The one thing that makes THAC0 difficult is that it involves subtraction, as subtraction is slightly more difficult than addition, a lot more for some poor people. Once you get to subtracting negative numbers (which wasn't that uncommon), then some people's heads started exploding.

Hey, I got confused by THAC0 more than once, and I'm especially good at mental arithmetic.

Oh, that and the inconsistency between ability/skill checks (low good) and to hit/saves (high good).

Cheers!

 

[chatdemon]

I'm talking about looking up your THAC0 on the chart, etc. In other words my explanation for attacks of opportunity didn't cover every possible situation, but neither can any description of THAC0 that limits itself to 20 words or less. That's all I meant.

The chart?
You mean the class levels chart? 3e has those too.

For the record, I must point out something here, 1e had no such concept as 'thac0', that was a 2e thing.

Yes, in 1e you cross referenced your class/level to your opponents AC on a chart. Not talking rocket science, though I will go out on a limb and say that thac0 was a huge improvement to that

BAB and THAC0 are essentially the same thing, as my example pointed out. I never understood why people hail BAB and villainize THAC0, I just don't get it/

 

[chatdemon]

Rich, with all respect, this is a stalking horse. "They" aren't releasing the third party books. The d20 publishers are. I don't think anyone seriously thinks each and every book and supplement needs to be bought or used. That's been made clear from the beginning. It's been emphasized time and again - the Core Books are the only ones you need; that's how the game was designed. There are options out there to fit any taste. I don't know why that's a bad thing.

Well, by 'they' i mean the collective publishers, since most people, myself included, consider D&D 3e and D20 to be one and the same system.

Anyway, I agree completely!, like I said, all 3 editions of AD&D only require the 3 core books, and suggesting that 3e is more of a compelte game based on the info provided in those 3 books isnt valid. Saying that 3e is more complete because the books hint at more options (like designing new spells, prestige classes, monsters, whatever) isn't fair because most of us did the same thing for 1e.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Because one was all about subtraction, frequently involving negative numbers, while the other uses addition. More people prefer to add than subtract. Also the concept that your AC gets higher as it gets better is more intuitive than it getting better as it gets lower, but only to an arbitrary -10.

 

[maddman75]

BAB for dummies:
Your AC is 15, My BAB is 3.
I subtract my BAB from your AC to get my target, in this case 12.

I roll D20, to that result i add the bonuses i may have from abilities or magic. and subtract any similar penalties. If my result is equal to or greater than my target, I hit.


I'm not seeing a huge amount of difference there....

Not quite correct.

Your AC is 15. My BAB is 3. I roll a d20, add my BAB and any other modifiers. That is the AC I hit. SO if its 15 or more, I hit.

This is only one operation, and addition is faster to do on the fly than subtraction. Thus, BAB is easier than Thac0.