AD&D is not "rules light"

[malraux]

I think it's lighter for the DM than it is for the players, actually; they have all their powers to manage.

I think it really depends on if you consider the text of a power card as a rule or not. Similarly, if you consider a monster's powers as rules or not, then that affects what you consider as a light vs heavy. Personally, I wouldn't consider either of those as rules, so the only rules reference my group has is checking the conditions descriptions.

 

[jdrakeh]

In 1e, if you want to grapple, you roll a d20, the dm consults a chart.

What version of AD&D 1e is that? My copy of the AD&D 1e DMG has two tables worth of modifiers to determine a base percentage chance to strike (including non-standard AC calculation) when grappling. A third table is then referenced to determine the result of the percentile die roll to grapple. There is also a different damage system for grappling than in standard combat. Where's this system of rolling 1d20 and comparing it to a single chart?

 

[Remathilis]

I think Dansuul hit the nail on the head.

AD&D (1e and 2e) were built around sub-systems that did/didn't go together seamlessly. It had two different ways to determine is you hear something (thieves: %, everyone else, d6) for example. Most DMs happily ignored the egregious offenders (psionics, grappling, weapon vs. armor) and ran the game like Basic D&D anyway, but with more complex classes and spells. (For example, it took us nearly 6 years of playing to use weapons speeds/casting times in 2e, we ran initiative like we did in BECMI but with a d10)

AD&D is only "rules-lite" when you run it a slightly more complex version of basic/original. If you tried to run it with all the rules (something EGG didn't even do!) you'll find the game is much more "heavy" than we like to remember.

 

[Remathilis]

What version of ADD&D 1e is that? My copy of the AD&D 1e DMG has two tables worth of modifiers to determine a base percentage chance to strike (including non-standard AC calculation) when grappling. A third table is then referenced to determine the result of the percentile die roll to grapple. There is also a different damage system for grappling than in standard combat. Where's this system of rolling 1d20 and comparing it to a single chart?

Pop quiz: How many different ways is there to punch someone in 2nd edition?

Answer: 6.

1.) PHB/DMG Pummeling/Wrestling chart
2.) Complete Fighter/Priest Martial Arts Table
3.) Complete Ninja's Handbook Martial Arts abilities (cribbed from OA)
4.) Combat & Tactics Punch/Grab rules
5.) Combat & Tactics Martial Arts rules
6.) Scarlet Brotherhood "Monk" class (which mirrors the 1e/3e monk)

 

[Lord Mhoram]

In 3.5E, I would call it an accomplishment to get through a single combat round without consulting a book. It was rare enough to celebrate in our games.

I was working at a game/comic shop at the same time period I was playing/GMing 3.x. I got paid to read rulebooks, and I am a system mastery kind of guy (I love reading rules more than Fluff). It took a year or two, but I got pretty much everything internalized.

But I am a freak that way.


As for 1E - no I wouldn't call it rules light, but I can see how some play it that way. Personally I don't tend towards that direction - I prefer rules heavy - D&D, Hero, Rolemaster, Mythus/Dangerous Journeys.


I knew one GM in my life, one, who used every rule - the adjustments vs AC type, aging ability score mods the works. He even went through all his monster books and assigned an AC type to each monster for that adjustment thing.

 

[coyote6]

In 3.5E, I would call it an accomplishment to get through a single combat round without consulting a book. It was rare enough to celebrate in our games.

I've gone entire 3.5e fights without consulting a book (or a file on my laptop, since I mostly use the SRD). The main thing that precipitates rule lookups for me are spells -- if someone casts some spell in a weird situation, or a little-used spell with different effects, then it may be time to check a book.

I've got the grappling rules down fairly well, though we may very well be doing that thing where the rule you use isn't exactly the rule that's in the book (see also, many AD&D 1e rules).

 

[Treebore]

I see this statement a lot around here: "AD&D is rules light"
Bullgrit

I think that is just short had for, "AD&D is rules light in comparison to X and Y."

Even so, I agree 1E is not rules light in and of itself, for "rules light" you definitely need to go back to the OD&D rules supplements.

Even so, if you read the clone of OD&D, Swords and Wizardy, its not all that rules light either, its just light in comparison to 1E and Basic.

 

[Maggan]

I started with RPGs in 1982, with "Drakar och Demoner", a Swedish translation of BRP and Fantasy World. This game then became the de facto rpg in Sweden, obliterating D&D completely, and creating entire generations of gamers who measured rules complexity against the first rulebook.

Which was 48 pages long, including the covers.

So to me, and to most Swedish gamers, AD&D was the definition of rules heavy. Three books to play the game? Yeah, we'll stick with our own rules set, thank you very much, TSR.

So the idea that AD&D is in any way rules light, is so alien to me that I, with my set of references, simply can't understand. Actually, I later started playing Basic D&D because I wanted to experience a more rules heavy game.

IMO and YMMV and all that.

 

[Remathilis]

I think that is just short had for, "AD&D is rules light in comparison to X and Y."

Even so, I agree 1E is not rules light in and of itself, for "rules light" you definitely need to go back to the OD&D rules supplements.

Even so, if you read the clone of OD&D, Swords and Wizardy, its not all that rules light either, its just light in comparison to 1E and Basic.

Unfortunately, its a meaningless definition in the end. There is no "basis" for comparison; I mean Craps is a rules-heavy game compared to paper-rock-scissors.

 

[roguerouge]

Heh. Whenever I wanted to torture my 1e DMs, I'd threaten to grapple, pummel or overbear.

Exactly. There was a percentile chart for what the result was for punching someone. When my character had nothing better to do, I had him try to punch stuff, because there was an instant knockout possibility.