AD&D is not "rules light"

[AllisterH]

.

The ability to master the rules plus having detailed references (which are really just distilled rules) doesn't make a game rules light. It just means you've mastered them to the point that you don't need to reference them frequently.

Ah, but I believe you don't NEED to master 4e rules.

Let's say you are a DM and you grab a random monster. If the monster has Improved Grab or Spells, you HAVE to crack open the PHB unless you know those details off in your head (and yes, it is possible to memorize spells)

Contrast that with a 4e DM. Is he going to need the PHB for anything? No. All the monster's info is right there...

I fully admit I never saw a DM screen for 1e or BD&D so I don't know what it contained but I do know from experience that when I DM 2e and 3e, my PHB and Monster manual are both open during the game.

 

[Dyson Logos]

Question:

As someone who hasn't run 4e yet, can you run a full game of 4e using only the PHB, or do you need the DMG and MM? From what I saw as a player, none of the enemies we fought were based on the PHB rules, they each had their own entries in the MM.

I'm currently playing in a 3e game that is PHB-only. XP is handled via handwavium, and even some of the PHB elements have been removed (domains, turning undead, half the skills, grappling). It's the GM's first time playing or running an RPG and he's doing great at it.

 

[Ariosto]

Dyson, one might (especially if one is not yet familiar with all the rules) on occasion need to look up something in the MM. For instance, what "insubstantial" means in 4E game-mechanical terms is very specific and perhaps not quite what one might think based on conventional (or old D&D) usage.

The DMG can be handy if subjects in the Additional Rules section of Chapter 3: Combat Encounters, or the Sample Mundane Terrain or Light Sources sections of Chapter 4: Building Encounters come up. It's a good idea to get acquainted before play with Chapter 5: Noncombat Encounters.

How much one refers to that material, though, really depends on how much the course of action departs from a scenario designer's expectations. The standard adventure format is pretty mechanically detailed, and monster stat blocks (using the same format as in the MM) are very user-friendly compared with 3E.

 

[Odhanan]

AD&D can be rules light in a number of ways. If, as DM, you actually don't strive to use every single option provided in the DMG but rather pick and choose the tools you want to use, as is/was the case in many vintage campaigns (i.e. rules as servants, guidelines, not masters of the going-ons at the game table), AD&D can be very simple to run.

If however you strive to run AD&D at the very letter of the written word, it will become a very complex game, mainly on an organizational and rules vs. exceptions level.

As a matter of fact, the complexity of AD&D mainly depends on the side of the screen from which you consider the issue. If it is from the DM's side, see above. If it is from the player's side, you aren't exposed to all the DMG's tools and options, and the game is really straightforward from there.

So really, it depends what your outlook is regarding rules in general, and on which side of the AD&D screen you stand. Depending on these factors, you'll find AD&D can be simple and straightforward, or not so much.

 

[Dyson Logos]

Dyson, one might (especially if one is not yet familiar with all the rules) on occasion need to look up something in the MM. For instance, what "insubstantial" means in 4E game-mechanical terms is very specific and perhaps not quite what one might think based on conventional (or old D&D) usage.

But does anything in the PHB reference things like "insubstantial"? Or if I bought a PHB could I run a game without needing to know that rule?

The DMG can be handy if subjects in the Additional Rules section of Chapter 3: Combat Encounters, or the Sample Mundane Terrain or Light Sources sections of Chapter 4: Building Encounters come up. It's a good idea to get acquainted before play with Chapter 5: Noncombat Encounters.

Ah, so it's a lot like AD&D1e where you can't actually do things like fight or have encounters without having the DMG? That's something I like about 3.x, you can play the game without ever having read the DMG or MM (like the game I'm in now).

How much one refers to that material, though, really depends on how much the course of action departs from a scenario designer's expectations. The standard adventure format is pretty mechanically detailed, and monster stat blocks (using the same format as in the MM) are very user-friendly compared with 3E.

I understand this, however I'm asking if I could buy the PHB and run 4e using /ONLY/ the PHB like the 3e game I'm playing in where the DM has never read nor seen the inside of the DMG or MM.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I understand this, however I'm asking if I could buy the PHB and run 4e using /ONLY/ the PHB like the 3e game I'm playing in where the DM has never read nor seen the inside of the DMG or MM.

Could that 3E game be run like that as easily if all the meat and potatoes from the DMG and MM were not available in something like an SRD?

 

[Ariosto]

But does anything in the PHB reference things like "insubstantial"? Or if I bought a PHB could I run a game without needing to know that rule?

I just checked, and "insubstantial" is in fact in the PHB -- as are other things that just happen to be gathered conveniently in a four-page glossary in the MM.

Ah, so it's a lot like AD&D1e where you can't actually do things like fight or have encounters without having the DMG? That's something I like about 3.x, you can play the game without ever having read the DMG or MM (like the game I'm in now).

I think one can indeed run scenarios such as those used at RPGA events with only the PHB -- although I'm not sure whether I had to look up skill challenges in the DMG when I did that. I would suggest downloading the free Keep on the Shadowfell and quick-start rules PDFs to get a picture of the basics. (I think there's a skill challenge in there.)

The DMG is really more for adjudicating things that are not laid out in a module -- and of course for designing adventures of one's own, for which the MM is also very helpful.

I understand this, however I'm asking if I could buy the PHB and run 4e using /ONLY/ the PHB like the 3e game I'm playing in where the DM has never read nor seen the inside of the DMG or MM.

I think you probably could, if you stuck to sufficiently detailed published adventures. You might not be able to deal with some things in precisely the expected 4E ways -- but if your players were acquainted in the first place with what those are, then I guess they could help out.

 

[Ariosto]

I think Advanced D&D benefited greatly from the more accessible and affordable Basic (and later Expert) books, and the boxed sets that were a bit pricier but often bought as gifts for youngsters. From what I've read, the 4E Basic Set is too limited to play the same role.

Here's a Chris Pramas column from a year ago:
Ex-Teenage Rebel: 4E and New Players

 

[LostSoul]

So, chapter 5, and some of the entries in the combat chapter, in the PHB (and however many pages in the DMG devoted to "skill challenges" and so on) are full of ... non-rules. Maybe that's something to keep in mind when judging the "rules heaviness" of AD&D.

Not non-rules. A rule; beat the DC to satisfy your intent.

Skill rules are things like:

Climbing a rope has an Athletics DC of 5
Idenfitying the powers of a heroic tier monster has a DC of 20
etc.

Which there are a lot of. You could add those in. But separating each skill as a different rule is wrong - the skill is mostly fluff, and the rule is "add the modifier to a d20 roll and compare to a DC set by the DM."

 

[Dyson Logos]

Could that 3E game be run like that as easily if all the meat and potatoes from the DMG and MM were not available in something like an SRD?

Absolutely.

I told the DM about the online SRD at our last game.

He's been running a 3.x game for a year now using only the PHB. No DMG, no MM, no SRD, no 3.x modules. He's never considered looking online for rules. He just runs the game from the one book he's got.

When he wants orcs, he just uses level one fighters with slightly modified half-orc stats. Same for just about every bad-guy we fight.