D&D 3E/3.5 Adding 3.5 Flavor to the 4e Paladin

[ComputerSherpa]

I saw a T-shirt a while back which said:

I'm a paladin.

1. Detect Evil
2. Smite Evil
3. Ask questions

I approve of this! This is how paladins roll! But 4e paladins don't have Smite Evil! Half of their attacks are called "smites", and they're great zombie-killers, but they've got nothing that specifically targets the evil alignment, which seems to be a sad trend in Fourth Edition. So let's see what we can do about that.

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Detect Evil - Paladin special feature
You close your eyes, then open them, and the world shifts to monochrome...
At-will, minor action
Target: Personal
Effect: Your vision switches to Detect Evil mode. You can identify good or evil creatures, objects, and effects as such by looking at them, even through walls and other barriers. An evil creature, object, or effect whose level is at least 10 higher than yours registers as overwhelmingly evil, and using Detect Evil on it dazes you.
You can detect good and evil through solid objects to a range of 30 feet. Stone and earth reduce this range by 10 feet per 5 feet of stone or earth you look through; metal reduces it by 5 feet per inch of metal; lead blocks it entirely. Unaligned creatures are visible as a grey outline, but they have concealment from you. You can turn Detect Evil off as a free action.

Channel Divinity: Smite Evil - Paladin special feature
Evil can't hide from a paladin's blade.
Encounter, minor action
Target: Personal
Effect: Your next attack does radiant damage instead of normal damage. If the target is evil, you gain a bonus to your attack roll equal to your Wisdom modifier. If the target is not evil, the entire attack is negated. You must yell “Smite Evil!” or otherwise verbally challenge your opponent when making this attack.

Feat: Improved Detect Evil
Prerequisites: Heroic tier, Paladin class, Detect Evil special feature, Wisdom 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 per tier feat bonus to attack rolls against targets whom you are detecting as evil.

Feat: Improved Smite Evil
Prerequisites: Heroic tier, Paladin class, Smite Evil special feature, Charisma 13
Benefit: You do bonus radiant damage equal to your level with your Smite Evil attack.

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I'm trying not to increase the power of the class too much with these additions, which is why I made Smite Evil a Channel Divinity power instead of a new daily as I originally planned. I'd appreciate advice on tuning these abilities to make them worth taking without being overpowered. I'm wondering if I should make Detect Evil an encounter power instead of an at-will to add more strategy to its use. I want Smite Evil to be cool and fun to use without breaking the game. Any advice?

 

[Stalker0]

For Smite Evil, drop the 1/2 level to the attack roll....that's way too strong in 4e. Your wisdom mod added to it can still be very strong, but is now in the ballpark.

 

[Hellzon]

Detect Evil - Paladin special feature
You close your eyes, then open them, and the world shifts to monochrome...
At-will, minor action
Target: Personal
Effect: Your vision switches to Detect Evil mode. You can identify good or evil creatures, objects, and effects as such by looking at them, even through walls and other barriers. An evil creature, object, or effect whose level is at least 10 higher than yours registers as overwhelmingly evil, and using Detect Evil on it dazes you. [Needs a duration]
You can detect good and evil through solid objects to a range of 30 feet. Stone and earth reduce this range by 10 feet per 5 feet of stone or earth you look through; metal reduces it by 5 feet per inch of metal; lead blocks it entirely. Unaligned creatures are visible as a grey outline, but they have concealment from you. You can turn Detect Evil off as a free action.

Looks neat, that part I added in red just jumped at me. I know zip about balance so I won't try that (but yes, +half level to hit is nuts in 4E).

 

[ComputerSherpa]

Okay, I'll definitely drop the "+ half your level" part. My players just hit level 3 last night, so it's not going to make a huge difference, but I do want this ability to scale properly.

My original intent was "dazed until you turn off Detect Evil or stop looking at the overwhelmingly evil aura". I suppose I could make it a one-round thing, but then I'd have to come up with a rule for how much time has to go by before you can get dazed again, and "stop Detecting Evil on the monster and you'll stop being dazed" has the advantage of simplicity.

 

[FireLance]

I like the idea of having Smite Evil as a Channel Divinity power. However, instead of granting an ability score based attack bonus (which may be too good, considering that the cleric's Divine Fortune only adds a +1), I would rather keep the attack bonus constant (say at +2) and add a level-dependent damage bonus as well. That would make it more like the 3e version. To balance it further, it could cost a feat to get Smite Evil as a Channel Divinity option.

I had previously statted up Detect Evil as a level 2 utility power, but since I wrote it up to basically allow Insight to work as Perception with respect to Evil and Chaotic EVil creatures, I think it wouldn't be overpowered as a power that you just spend a feat to get.

Detect Evil
Feat Power
Daily * Divine
Standard Action
Personal
Effect: You may use your Insight skill instead of your Perception skill to detect the presence of Evil or Chaotic Evil creatures within 10 squares of you. A successful Insight check (opposed by the creature's Hide check, or against a DC of 10 + 1/2 creature's level, if it is already in plain sight) reveals an Evil or Chaotic Evil creature's location and alignment.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes. You may make an Insight check every round as part of the minor action used to sustain this power.​

 

[silverwhisper]

considering paladins in 4e may be of any alignment, did you consider adding versions that cater to unaligned, evil and CE paladins?

ed

 

[FireLance]

considering paladins in 4e may be of any alignment, did you consider adding versions that cater to unaligned, evil and CE paladins?

I wouldn't, but that's just my personal preference. If you will, it's a bit of a homage to the historical lawful good-only restriction of the paladin class.

 

[malcolm_n]

I like the way firelance did it with the daily feat power. I wouldn't make it a feat, though, but rather an alternative channel divinity (choose 2 out of the 3 available at first level). It's not horrible as an encounter power with the restriction of 10 + 1/2 creature's level. I would actually consider it 10 + creature's level since you can get 40 + with relative ease at epic tier (reference rituals).

 

[ComputerSherpa]

I like the idea of having Smite Evil as a Channel Divinity power. However, instead of granting an ability score based attack bonus (which may be too good, considering that the cleric's Divine Fortune only adds a +1), I would rather keep the attack bonus constant (say at +2) and add a level-dependent damage bonus as well. That would make it more like the 3e version. To balance it further, it could cost a feat to get Smite Evil as a Channel Divinity option.

This makes sense, but I'm worried about obsolescing Channel Divinity: Divine Strength. If I give Smite Evil a straight damage bonus, then there's no situation in which Divine Strength is useful. I also have to be careful about not requiring too many feats; my players are only level 3 and they don't have a lot of extra feat slots. If my paladin PC wants to invest in improving one of these powers, that's great, but he's not going to be able to afford one feat to get the power and another for the improved verion.

I had previously statted up Detect Evil as a level 2 utility power, but since I wrote it up to basically allow Insight to work as Perception with respect to Evil and Chaotic EVil creatures, I think it wouldn't be overpowered as a power that you just spend a feat to get.

Detect Evil
Feat Power
Daily * Divine
Standard Action
Personal
Effect: You may use your Insight skill instead of your Perception skill to detect the presence of Evil or Chaotic Evil creatures within 10 squares of you. A successful Insight check (opposed by the creature's Hide check, or against a DC of 10 + 1/2 creature's level, if it is already in plain sight) reveals an Evil or Chaotic Evil creature's location and alignment.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain this power until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes. You may make an Insight check every round as part of the minor action used to sustain this power.
​

Hey, cool! I like the powers you linked to--good to see I haven't been the only person thinking about this. If my campaign goes long enough, I may borrow some of those utility powers.

Using the Insight skill to try and detect enemies through solid matter instead of just having an on/off superpower is an interesting idea which I will consider carefully. I have to say I liked the idea of a paladin with glowing eyes looking through walls and unambiguously identifying targets as evil, but making it more chance-based would be more consistent with the rest of the system. Maybe I'll make it so that looking directly at a target gives you a 100% chance to identify their alignment, but when looking through walls you have to make an Insight check.

considering paladins in 4e may be of any alignment, did you consider adding versions that cater to unaligned, evil and CE paladins?

ed

No, not really. I'm not so fond of anti-paladins. You can, if you want.

I like the way firelance did it with the daily feat power. I wouldn't make it a feat, though, but rather an alternative channel divinity (choose 2 out of the 3 available at first level). It's not horrible as an encounter power with the restriction of 10 + 1/2 creature's level. I would actually consider it 10 + creature's level since you can get 40 + with relative ease at epic tier (reference rituals).

Saying you can use two out of your 3-4 Channel Divinity abilities per encounter is going to get complicated to track. I'm more inclined to give Detect Evil to him as an additional class feature, since (if it's not upgraded with the Improved Detect Evil feat) it provides no additional firepower during combat.

Here's one thing that bothers me about the way Detect Magic works (and it'd probably be safe to base Detect Evil on the same mechanic): Sense the Presence of Magic is DC 20 + 1/2 the power's level (PHB p. 181). This means that as effects get more powerful they get harder to detect. Wouldn't you expect it to be the other way 'round? An overwhelmingly powerful Magical Zone of Doom cast by a level 30 archmage should be much easier to sense than a cloud of daggers cast by a novice. Granted, this would make Detect Magic scale really weird, but there's got to be a way to make it make more sense than the current version.

 

[malcolm_n]

I'm not saying use 2 out of 3 or 4. I'm saying at first level, choose 2 Channel Divinity powers (of which the proposed paladin has 3 options). You can use one of those powers during each encounter, but not both.

In essence, it makes them out like at-wills; where you pick two from the list to go with your character.