Adjudicating Illusions

[phindar]

A soldier is a creature. A horde of soldiers is not 'a creature', it is many creatures; nor is it an object or (in the non-military sense of the word) a force; thus, I wouldn't consider it a valid use of the spell.

This is technically correct ("The best kind of correct"), but it leads me to some confusion down the road. Silent Image begats Minor Image, which says its works the same, plus some sound. Major Image says it functions like Silent Image plus sound, smell and thermal elements ("The Big Three" when depicting a flatulent ogre). 4th level there's no Image spell, but there is Hallucinatory Terrain, which changes the terrain of an area but specifically states its doe not alter the appearance of creatures. So far, so good.

5th level, Persistant Image, 3.5 PHB, pg 260 "This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal components, and the figment follows a script determined by you. The figment follows that script without your having to concentrate on it. The illusion can include intelligible speech if you wish. For Instance, you could create the illusion of several orcs playing cards and arguing, culminating in a fistfight." [bold mine]

When did several orcs get into the picture? (The SRD excudes this example, so a strict reading of the SRD would make the several orcs thing impossible.) Is this just a case of lazy editing? At what level would several creatures become acceptable?

To me, using Silent Image to make 16 people doesn't seem that much better (or all that different) from making a Huge Deepspawn. If an illusionist wanted to create a small crowd of people to hide behind, it doesn't seem like it would be that much different from making an illusion of a horse or a low wall, but what level would you make a spell like Silent Crowd?

Here's what I'm thinking of. An illusionist could make an illusion of an 80' long, 20' diameter snake filling a 80'x20'x20' corridor, but he couldn't create an illusion of the same hallway carpeted in normal snakes. Mechanically, its the same save, a creature interacts with the illusion (attacking, observation, trying to shoo the snakes out of the way), gets a Will Save and either thinks the Big Snake or Little Snakes are real, or pierces the illusion. No one would have to make a separate Will Save against different tiny snakes if they were created by the same illusion, so what's the difference?

 

[satori01]

so what's the difference?

You are using well reasoned and compelling arguments for the intent behind the letter of the rules...and sometimes that just does not fly here

Seriously though I tend to agree. As a DM I tend to be more lenient on Illusion spells because the creativity of the player directly impacts the effectiveness of the spell. A Fireball is a Fireball, but a poorly thought out Illusion is a waste. Also Illusions as a class of spells have some many effects that can negate them, form Undead to True Seeing, to player uncertainty to cast a spell that requires a fair bit of DM adjudication.

Sadly I think this discourages players from selecting Illusion spells which is a shame, and something I actively try to get my players to select.

 

[Kestrel]

That was my reasoning, that the desired effect fit the confines of the spell, so I allowed it. However, i did rule that the soldiers all looked exactly the same and moved in coordination. So, that actually led to it being less believable than a single soldier. (but i didnt apply any modifiers, just used the rules as is.)

 

[Twowolves]

Strictly, "This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you."

A soldier is a creature. A horde of soldiers is not 'a creature', it is many creatures; nor is it an object or (in the non-military sense of the word) a force; thus, I wouldn't consider it a valid use of the spell.

-Hyp.

What if it was a soldier with the "Mob" template?

 

[Jack Simth]

Also Illusions as a class of spells have some many effects that can negate them, form Undead

FYI - undead are not inherently immune to illusions in 3.5.

 

[Mistwell]

Slightly off topic - What I would like to see in 4e regarding illusions.

I suspect/hope 4e will allow players to specialize their spellcasters better than the current system.

For example, if you make an illusionist, rather than just getting extra spells, I'd prefer it to be an ability based on the image spells (silent/minor/major/programmed series of spells) in this edition. Such as 1 x day x level you can create an illusion. The complexity and abilities of that illusion are level dependent, as are the area you can effect, range, and number of creatures or unattended objects you can create at one time. So eventually you could give your illusion(s) movement, sound, thermal effects, scent, programming, and the number of images you could create would increase with level, and their distance from you, and their size, and the realism of their movements, their reactions to attacks, etc...

Such a system would of course solve for the mystery of how many creatures or unattended objects you could create with an image spell. And, you now get abilities at higher levels other than spells, making the class more interesting. And your illusionists actually use their illusions more often probably, and seem more like illusionists rather than generic spell casters who sometimes cast illusion spells. The other specialties would get similar treatment.

 

[Dross]

........ so what's the difference?

I wonder, does it make a difference that the way to hurt a group of closely spaced foes is an area effect spell, and to hurt a single foe the AoE spell probably isn't worth it and try something else?

 

[phindar]

That's a good point. Whereas one guy would cause the NPCs to waste an attack or an arrow, a group would more likely cause the waste of a area-effect spell slot. Its more of a guideline though, I think someone would be more likely to unload the big guns at an 80' long snake than a corridor full of normal snakes, or at a writhing deepspawn as opposed to a small group of warriors. Unfortunately, how visually impressive a creature is doesn't really factor into the casting of the spell. If its the same spell slot to create a gargantuan deepspawn as it is to create a medium human or a tiny housecat, then it seems a little hinky.