Adjudicating Immediate actions

[Hypersmurf]

Actually a failed concentration check means the action failed not that it was aborted. There is a difference. Aborted tends to mean that you may do something else instead.

He's talking about if the Concentration check succeeds.

I start to cast Sound Burst in a tiny room, trusting on the fact that I have more than 8 hit points remaining to keep me conscious.

You take an AoO and hit me for seven points of damage. I make the Concentration check, so my casting does not automatically fail. However, I'm now thinking that finishing the spell would be a bad idea, since I only have three hit points left; chances are the spell will knock me out. I elect not to continue casting the spell.

I don't think I'm entitled to a different standard action; I took the Cast a Spell action. I'd also be inclined to rule that the spell slot is lost. But the option to not finish casting the spell is there.

-Hyp.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Mine too.

This is *exactly* the issue of concern with this rule.

And precisely why I treat Immediate Actions as Instants from MtG. I don't want to have to worry about narrating things slowly enough to allow my players time to chime in with "oh, I cast this Immediate effect," especially when they're so slow casting spells on their own turns. I'm not going to get into arguments with them crying out "you need to interrupt me after I say, 'he casts a spell' and before 'for 10 fire damage', even though I said 'he casts a spell for 10 fire damage'.

I hate the idea that the existence of immediate actions somehow require me to leave long pauses or calls for actions in the middle of my descriptions. I have slightly modified the description of things to accomodate this rule, however. Now instead of saying "he hits you with a fireball for 20 damage. Roll your saving throw," I say, "He hits you with a fireball. Roll your saving throw." At that point, players can chime in with, "a fireball? I use Energy Adaptation (fire)." Once I've rolled damage, the event is over, but I at least give the dice a few shakes after announcing the effect to allow people to step in with their actions.

I also don't want to clutter up combat with any more rolls than are strictly necessary. I only give spellcraft rolls when my players really care about identifying a spell before it's cast, or when they're trying to dispel. If I were to use them to set up Immediate Actions, I'd need to call for spellcraft rolls every single friggin' time someone cast a spell, just in case it's something the players will want to respond to. That's a waste of time, and annoying, to boot.

By allowing players to respond to exploding fireballs in the period of time between the start of the explosion and the end, I make things easier for myself and don't render Immediate Actions completely and utterly useless.

 

[boozerker]

The problem with immediate actions is that for years they didn't exist, suddenly they do, and yet they are free. But instead of simply being free during an opponent's turn, why not rule that immediate actions trigger some kind of check?

That could happen two ways:

If the immediate action reacts to a character in harm's way, request a Spot check to see if the PC even notices first -- the DC could be a simple 15 or 20. Or a general Wisdom check could see how aware such PCs are of other actions going on away from their own situation. Remember that anything the DM says to another player is potential "player information" to everyone else.

Second, is the PC as quick as their immediate action? If a spell against another character requires a Reflex save, why not have it also require one from the PC casting a mystic aegis?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think the statement is that you can't interrupt an action that has already taken place. You can't wait to see who is targetted by a scorching ray for example before casting energy aegis on him, becuase at that point it is too late.

But if you couldn't do that, energy aegis would be pointless.

It doesn't seem to me that there is any point in nerfing immediate spells by insisting that they can't go here or there. I see nothing wrong with allowing it to be cast after a fireball is cast but before it explodes, or after a scorching ray has rolled to hit but before damage is rolled. I wouldn't allow it to be cast after the damage has been rolled (because it literally is too late then), but at any time before that - why ever not?

It's hardly like its going to break the game.

 

[KarinsDad]

But if you couldn't do that, energy aegis would be pointless.

It doesn't seem to me that there is any point in nerfing immediate spells by insisting that they can't go here or there. I see nothing wrong with allowing it to be cast after a fireball is cast but before it explodes, or after a scorching ray has rolled to hit but before damage is rolled. I wouldn't allow it to be cast after the damage has been rolled (because it literally is too late then), but at any time before that - why ever not?

It's hardly like its going to break the game.

If I remember correctly, Energy Aegis is one round per level. So, it has a lot of utility in the game as is.

And, the reason for our POV is not because the opposing POV is game breaking. It is because it is (IMO) the most reasonable interpretation of the rules (considering the fact that there are very little rules for IAs in the first place).


One thing I do not like is the IA spell Arms Escalation that is taking place in the game. Every supplement (with spells in it) coming out any more has more and more IA spells. Allowing "during resolution" IAs just adds to that escalation.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

If I remember correctly, Energy Aegis is one round per level. So, it has a lot of utility in the game as is.

What about the elan's resistance and resiliance abilities, as examples of instantaneous immediate actions? If you use the resiliance ability before you get hit, you aren't currently taking damage, and so the ability is useless. If you use the ability after you get hit, and are not allowed to interrupt the event with an immediate action, you must wait until the damage is resolved. At that point it's too late to use it. A similar, but slightly weaker, argument can be made for resistance.

Can you answer Plane Sailing's objection using resiliance instead of Energy Aegis?

 

[MarkB]

If I remember correctly, Energy Aegis is one round per level. So, it has a lot of utility in the game as is.

Nope, it's one round, and works only against the next attack of the appropriate energy type. So you can either take a wild guess at the type of spell that's about to be incoming, and its target, or you can use it in response to a spell being cast. Remove option 2, and it's a near-useless spell.

One thing I do not like is the IA spell Arms Escalation that is taking place in the game. Every supplement (with spells in it) coming out any more has more and more IA spells. Allowing "during resolution" IAs just adds to that escalation.

Immediate Actions didn't exist when the original core books were put together. Now that they do, it's natural for them to be used. Your POV seems to be more that you don't want these spells to be used in the way they are than that the rules don't allow it.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Nope, it's one round, and works only against the next attack of the appropriate energy type. So you can either take a wild guess at the type of spell that's about to be incoming, and its target, or you can use it in response to a spell being cast. Remove option 2, and it's a near-useless spell.

Yes, pretty much. The same thing applies to a lot of immediate actions. They all pretty much need to know: What is attacking you, who the target is, and (debateably) whether or not the target was hit. Without that information before you cast the spell, most of them are useless or close to useless. Without the last piece of information(whether the hit succeeds or not), most of them are a lot less powerful but still usable. You just have to use a lot of them on false alarms.

Immediate Actions didn't exist when the original core books were put together. Now that they do, it's natural for them to be used. Your POV seems to be more that you don't want these spells to be used in the way they are than that the rules don't allow it.

I agree, I like them BECAUSE they are useable in reaction to things, it means as a caster you don't have to spent all of your actions readying for things to happen if you want to be sort of a "battlefield control" mage or cleric. It lets you use your spells to protect people while attacking or buffing during your own turn.

I'm using this thread to come to a final conclusion about when they can be used though. Right now I'm allowing them to be cast between hit and damage rolls, and between seeing a bolt of fire streaking at someone from a spell and when it deals damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

What about the elan's resistance and resiliance abilities, as examples of instantaneous immediate actions? If you use the resiliance ability before you get hit, you aren't currently taking damage, and so the ability is useless. If you use the ability after you get hit, and are not allowed to interrupt the event with an immediate action, you must wait until the damage is resolved. At that point it's too late to use it. A similar, but slightly weaker, argument can be made for resistance.

Can you answer Plane Sailing's objection using resiliance instead of Energy Aegis?

Two points on this:

1) I do not mind if certain IA spells or abiliites state they can interrupt resolution as part of their descriptions (typically because they do not make sense unless you do that). Resiliance is one of these. Within its description, it states that this occurs when she takes damage (i.e. during, not before or after). It is also ok for a DM to modify an IA spell or ability so that it does this because he has little or no utility otherwise. But, I do not think DMs should do this for every IA.

2) Elans are broke due to their IA abilities. They do not even have a boost to LA. I played an Elan Psion for 9 levels. In that time, she fell unconscious once. Resiliance is an extremely potent ability.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nope, it's one round, and works only against the next attack of the appropriate energy type. So you can either take a wild guess at the type of spell that's about to be incoming, and its target, or you can use it in response to a spell being cast. Remove option 2, and it's a near-useless spell.

Thanks for the correction.

But, the rest of what you say is not necessarily true.

When a spell caster casts a spell, opponents (if they can see/hear components) can make a Spellcraft roll (DC 15 + spell level) to determine which spell is cast.

This makes Energy Aegis nearly as useful as if you allowed it after the spell is cast.

The main difference is that a successful Spellcraft roll must be made (which at least in our games is a piece of cake, e.g. our 6th level psion/wizard has spellcraft of +18). Sure, the DM might not tell you who the target of a Scorching Ray or Fireball spell is, but that's a bit over the top. It's not as if a caster should be allowed to not look at his target, not point his finger (for elemental spells) at his target, etc. That's a bit extreme, at least without some type of Bluff check.