Adjudicating Immediate actions

[Nail]

I wouldn't.

WotC is about making money. So, any "cool" idea they can come up with is fair game, regardless of how balanced it is and regardless of whether the idea makes sense from a character perspective.

I may agree with your intent, but it's hardly fair to use "WotC published this to make money" as an arguement for/against a particular interpretation of the rules. Such a stance is beside the point.

An immediate action is a kind of free action. Free actions can be done during other actions. Other actions have steps to resolve them. Therefore an immediate action can happen between the steps taken to resolve an action.

I can't state that any more clearly.

 

[ThirdWizard]

An immediate action is a kind of free action. Free actions can be done during other actions. Other actions have steps to resolve them. Therefore an immediate action can happen between the steps taken to resolve an action.

I can't state that any more clearly.

I think this is where the oppinions diverge: Just because Free Actions are allowed to occur at any time in the round does not mean that each and every Free Action can occur at any time in the round.

 

[KarinsDad]

An immediate action is a kind of free action. Free actions can be done during other actions. Other actions have steps to resolve them. Therefore an immediate action can happen between the steps taken to resolve an action.

Exactly which free actions can happen between the steps taken to resolve an action are you using to support your POV that immediate actions can do that?

 

[Nail]

Speaking!

 

[KarinsDad]

Speaking!

They can? Sure, the character can do it outside his turn and during another character's actions, but how exactly does he do it between the dice resolution steps?

Where is your rules quote for this?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

They can? Sure, the character can do it outside his turn and during another character's actions, but how exactly does he do it between the dice resolution steps?

Where is your rules quote for this?

Where is there a rules quote saying you CAN'T do this?

When I see the rule that says a free action can be performed at any time, even during another action, I assume it can happen at any time during that action unless it specifies an exception of some sort.

I can easily conceptualize doing almost any free action I am aware of while doing something else. You can speak while swinging, activate an item with a quick command word while swinging, cast a spell with a REALLY quick gesture with my off hand while swinging. Nothing conceptually prevents me from waiting until my sword is JUST about inside of them or after its inside but I haven't pulled it out yet.

 

[ThirdWizard]

cast a spell with a REALLY quick gesture with my off hand while swinging.

Interesting, casting a spell with a Swift Action (or Quickened) that adds to damage after hitting, but before damage is rolled. Personally, I'm not so sure that that's RAW.

 

[KarinsDad]

Where is there a rules quote saying you CAN'T do this?

When I see the rule that says a free action can be performed at any time, even during another action, I assume it can happen at any time during that action unless it specifies an exception of some sort.

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.

The free action can be done while taking another action, but where does it state that it can be initiated at any time during that action? It is one thing to declare that you are going to drop to the ground during your attack. It is another thing to delcare that you are going to drop to the ground after you find out your attack failed (and the attack action is already over).

I can easily conceptualize doing almost any free action I am aware of while doing something else. You can speak while swinging, activate an item with a quick command word while swinging, cast a spell with a REALLY quick gesture with my off hand while swinging. Nothing conceptually prevents me from waiting until my sword is JUST about inside of them or after its inside but I haven't pulled it out yet.

Resolution is not "in character" actions. It is player actions.

Characters do not roll dice to resolve actions. Players do.

A round presents an opportunity for each character involved in a combat situation to take an action.

Some free actions (like speaking) can be done at the same time as another character's action.

There is no such thing as doing a character's free action at the same time as another "player's action".

There are some specific actions that declare that characters can do some specific actions after a given game mechanic resolution is determined. For example, you can decide to drop a tripping weapon on a successful countertrip. But, those are exceptions.


You cannot stop Bullrushing your opponent because an opponent got a successful Attack of Opportunity against you (unless you die or go unconscious) since those are all part of the same action resolution.

A spell, on the other hand, can be aborted after taking damage from a successful AoO since the Concentration skill effectively says so. You must make the Concentration check, but the skill says that if you make it, "you may continue with the action as normal" which indicates that you do not have to. Bullrush does not have any such wording.

 

[jgsugden]

It seems like the best answer is to know the ability of your PCs, and try to leave time for the PCs to declare an immediate action.

Often, a DM might say: "The enemy sorcerer casts a fireball at the party that deals... (rolling and counting...) 33 damage."

If you know your PC has an immediate action spell that can give a creature fire resistance for a round, the DM might say the following: "The sorcerer begins casting a spell." (Pause to wait for someone doing a spellcraft roll and/or casting an immediate spell.) "The spell is a fireball which he casts at the party for (rolling and counting...) 33 damage."

In the end, this would be my rule:

1.) If the DM allowed sufficient time for the PC to speak up and perform an immediate spell, and the PC failed to do so, the PC missed his or her chance.

2.) If the DM failed to allow the PC enough time to speak up and perform an immediate spell, the PC can retroctively insert the action *if* that PC could have known that performing the action would be beneficial (due to a spellcraft roll, etc...)

3.) Immediate actions can take place before or during other actions, but may not be performed retroactively unless the DM failed to give the PCs enough time to declare an immediate action as described above.

 

[irdeggman]

A spell, on the other hand, can be aborted after taking damage from a successful AoO since the Concentration skill effectively says so. You must make the Concentration check, but the skill says that if you make it, "you may continue with the action as normal" which indicates that you do not have to. Bullrush does not have any such wording.

Actually a failed concentration check means the action failed not that it was aborted. There is a difference. Aborted tends to mean that you may do something else instead.

If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well.