adjudicating surprise

[Voadam]

All right, in my game I have a cleric with a special meld with stone and stonewalking ability who comes to the wall of a cavern chamber. Simultaneously the arcane trickster is coming in ethereally but cannot see much because of the solid stone until he gets to the chamber. The rest of the party is coming in through the main entrance to the demon infested cavern complex to cause chaos with a planned surprise assault.

The cleric and trickster expect a possessed warrior and succubus to be in the chamber and a bug demon on the ethereal plane with blindsense, scent, etc that extends across to the prime as well. The cleric can hear normally (per meld with stone) as he earth walks through the mountain and goes to the place the ethereal scouting trickster checked out before.

Unfortunately for the party the demons figured out one of their sentries were missing and that the party is coming and gave a general alert throughout the complex and planned an ambush at the entrance.

So instead of the possessed fighter being caught with his pants down engaged with the succubus when the dwarf cleric comes out of the stone and the trickster enters the chamber ethereally the succubus has just finished helping him on with his plate armor and he is expecting magical enemies who can possibly teleport but expecting them at the entrance.

The dwarf did not stop to listen first before going in, but was expecting the human and demon. He was planning on popping out and using a banishment on anybody he could see and target.

So how should this run for surprise as the trickster and cleric enter the chamber? Who should be considered "aware" of who at the beginning of the combat for surprise purposes? The dwarf cannot see the ethereal bug demon who can see him and could free action come back to the prime plane to attack him but won't because of the ethereal trickster. The bug has a blindsense that should pick up the trickster and the cleric. The fighter and succubus are gearing up for trouble but not exactly from the wall of their chamber. The cleric did not stop to listen for them and came out pretty much blind but expecting them.

From the srd combat section

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents at the start of the battle. If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds of combat begin. The combatants who are aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take one action (either a standard action or a move action) during the surprise round. Combatants who were unaware do not get to act in the surprise round. If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round.

 

[Belen]

Spot/ listen rolls. Unless the bug has the time to warn the others of the exact location of the cleric and mage.

If they make it, then no surprise. The bug could possibly surprise the cleric or mage though.

 

[Quasqueton]

So instead of the possessed fighter being caught with his pants down engaged with the succubus...

Quasqueton

 

[Henry]

As I always say, just because you know something's coming, doesn't mean you can be surprised by it...

 

[Voadam]

BelenUmeria, how would you determine spot and listen DCs? Nobody is trying to hide or move silently and nobody has cover for hiding.


SPOT (WIS)
Check: The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (see the Disguise skill), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

Condition Penalty
Per 10 feet of distance –1
Spotter distracted –5

Read Lips: To understand what someone is saying by reading lips, you must be within 30 feet of the speaker, be able to see him or her speak, and understand the speaker’s language. (This use of the skill is language-dependent.) The base DC is 15, but it increases for complex speech or an inarticulate speaker. You must maintain a line of sight to the lips being read.
If your Spot check succeeds, you can understand the general content of a minute’s worth of speaking, but you usually still miss certain details. If the check fails by 4 or less, you can’t read the speaker’s lips. If the check fails by 5 or more, you draw some incorrect conclusion about the speech. The check is rolled secretly in this case, so that you don’t know whether you succeeded or missed by 5.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. To read lips, you must concentrate for a full minute before making a Spot check, and you can’t perform any other action (other than moving at up to half speed) during this minute.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to spot something that you failed to see previously at no penalty. You can attempt to read lips once per minute.
Special: A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Spot checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Spot checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf has a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Spot checks.
The master of a hawk familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in daylight or other lighted areas.
The master of an owl familiar gains a +3 bonus on Spot checks in shadowy or other darkened areas.

LISTEN (WIS)
Check: Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target’s Move Silently check.

Listen DC Sound
–10 A battle
0 People talking1
5 A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise.
10 An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise
15 A 1st-level rogue using Move Silently to sneak past the listener
15 People whispering1
19 A cat stalking
30 An owl gliding in for a kill
1 If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what’s being said, assuming that you understand the language.

Listen DC Modifier Condition
+5 Through a door
+15 Through a stone wall
+1 Per 10 feet of distance
+5 Listener distracted

In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.
Try Again: Yes. You can try to hear something that you failed to hear previously with no penalty.
Special: When several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals’ Listen checks.
A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Listen checks made as reactions.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Listen checks.
A ranger gains a bonus on Listen checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Listen checks..
A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper.

MOVE SILENTLY (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Move Silently check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging.
Noisy surfaces, such as bogs or undergrowth, are tough to move silently across. When you try to sneak across such a surface, you take a penalty on your Move Silently check as indicated below.

Surface Check Modifier
Noisy (scree, shallow or deep bog, undergrowth, dense rubble) –2
Very noisy (dense undergrowth, deep snow) –5

Action:None. A Move Silently check is included in your movement or other activity, so it is part of another action.
Special: The master of a cat familiar gains a +3 bonus on Move Silently checks.
A halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Move Silently checks.

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.
If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.
A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17thlevel ranger can do this even while being observed.

 

[Belen]

I would treat the spot check as per invis with the cleric since he will have to come out of the wall. So the DC would be hide +20. Not sure about the mage, but he has to become visible to cast against the non-etheral opponents.

Listen may be the wrong skill.

It all depends on whether the bug can warn them effectively. They will probably still be surprised, but there is a chance that the cleric can be spotted as he comes out of the wall.