Adult: GUCK Development Forum again

[VVrayven]

Should we include rules for using minis ?

You mean you don't use them now?

Instead of a side bar, I'd rather see an optional chapter or a "slapbook-like" add on. Something turnbased like combat.

Just to clarify:

We have two sets of rules currently in development. A Soft-Focus and a Hard-Focus. Both rules sets (as I see it) are going to be presented in full. The Soft-Focus rules are to see the quick results of one encounter without much rolling or detail. The Hard-Focus rules are indeed turn based and work in a "combat-style" manner. They work with a 6 second round just like standard d20 and involve a series of skill checks and Fortitude saves for resistance. That's why all the DC's are so high and why a common idiot with a 0 in Prowess can still perform to satisfaction (by taking 20). Hence, over 2 minutes, a one category improvement can be made. (So 6 minutes total for the whole encounter).

All of this information about the rules sets I thought was already assumed. I do not think the way the assigning of feats and tricks, or mini-feats works should change between the soft and hard focus rules. They should be a quick and detail version without needed to have different core stats, IMHO.

Whatever we decide on, "perform-eqse", "sex-trick + mini-feat", or anything else, I believe it should function identically for both Soft-Focus and Hard-Focus. If we want a sidebar for giving additional skills or tricks or feats by level or prowess as an optional rule, I think that is okay too.

 

[Bastoche]

Ok great.

 

[Gez]

I share VVrayven's (that's VV or W ? Your username and sigpic disagree ) opinion that there should be no statblock difference between soft-system and hard-system.

If we go the route of the perform-esque system, I'd like to point out that there's a kind of precedent for skill ranks granting special abilities -- bardic music. Of course, bardic music requires to be a bard, and is limited in uses per day; but it's also more powerful and overall useful than sex tricks. Wonder if we may use the same system.

Let say that former sex trick X could now be used by any character with Y ranks in Sexual Prowess and with the "sexual proficiency" Z, for example.

We may, as a parallel to bardic music, limit the number of use per day, to be equal to the rank in the skill (rather than the class level, since that would not be a class ability). That way a 1st-level character who max this skill would be better than a high level hero that don't really care about that stuff (1 or 2 ranks) -- that's about what we're trying to get, right ?

What do you think ?

 

[VVrayven]

I share VVrayven's (that's VV or W ? Your username and sigpic disagree ) opinion that there should be no statblock difference between soft-system and hard-system.

I'm glad you agree. (It's a W, long story on why I once had to adopt the double Vs and then it just kinda became habit. Pronounced Ray-Ven, )

Let say that former sex trick X could now be used by any character with Y ranks in Sexual Prowess and with the "sexual proficiency" Z, for example.

This is a really cool idea. In my heart, I want to do the sex tricks and feat route. Perhaps a reduced list of sex tricks that can only be used like bardic music. That way we could make Prowess like Perform AND have all the neat tricks and abilities AND feats. I really like the idea.

Just in case I'm missing the point (which I often do, ) It would work something like this:?

A character could have Prowess, 4 ranks (oral(male), position A, submission, oral(female)).

That would qualify them for

Improved Oral Sex Trick:
Prereqs: 3 ranks Prowess, Prof in Oral(male) and oral(female)
Benefit: Usable x per sexual encounter, allows, blah blah...

If that is the way it works, I love it! Now, do they purchase these new "sexual abilites" or do they just gain access to them by getting certain proficiencies?

What do you think ?

Great Idea Gez! I really really like it Let's see what Death by Surfeit thinks too.

 

[Gez]

Just in case I'm missing the point (which I often do, )

This happens to everyone.

It would work something like this:?

A character could have Prowess, 4 ranks (oral(male), position A, submission, oral(female)).

That would qualify them for

Improved Oral Sex Trick:
Prereqs: 3 ranks Prowess, Prof in Oral(male) and oral(female)
Benefit: Usable x per sexual encounter, allows, blah blah...

Yes, although I didn't thought of keying the frequency of use to individual "effects" but to the skill ranks, in the same way bardic music is keyed to level.

The various "Focus" would becomes mere proficiencies, while stuff like "Everywhere at once" or "Instant recovery" would become "effects".

If that is the way it works, I love it! Now, do they purchase these new "sexual abilites" or do they just gain access to them by getting certain proficiencies?

If we make them works like bardic music, you won't have to buy them specifically (although you may have to buy the prerequisite). If you met the required ranks and proficiencies, you get it.

In a way, it's also like martial art style in OA (fulfilling the requirements in term of skills, feats, and BAB give special bonus or maneuvers). Martial art style were presented as being the feat equivalent of synergy bonus for skills.

So, here we have our "erotic arts style" !

Great Idea Gez! I really really like it Let's see what Death by Surfeit thinks too.

As my forum friend Upper Krust says, "I appreciate the love, mate"

 

[VVrayven]

As my forum friend Upper Krust says, "I appreciate the love, mate"

Always happy to give it ::blows kiss:: To those who deserve it anyway. And you do for this idea.

I think I'm getting it now. And now I really really really like this idea. Sorry if I was confused at first, Gez.

So, it would be something like Sex Arts are usable once per (sexual encounter, day, ??) per rank that is possessed in Sexual Prowess.

Neat.

Okay, and like perform, we would have a list of proficiences: Oral(male), Oral(female), Sodomy, Specific Position, Toys, Masturbation(male), Masturbation(female), Bondage, Submission, Domination, etc...

Then there is a list of "Sex Arts" that are "avalible" after a person meets a certain rank and certain proficiences. Then they can use these and they take up a use of sex arts. Neat!

And I still have heard no comments on my idea for Kinks: (Fetishes/Frets, Philias/Phobias) idea.

Oh well. Good job Gez. We are going to need to revise the Sex Tricks into Sex Arts now, we'll need more and a lot of refinement if this is going to be the direction we take.

So, here we have our "erotic arts style" !

I like it!

Well, that's my 2 cents for the night. ::

 

[Death By Surfeit]

Knock back in a backward, internet-less corner for a few days, and everyone ups the ante. Tch.

Kidding, kidding! Everyone’s had an awful lot of brilliant ideas and a lot of things to contribute - just what we need! Looking over everything that’s been said and done, I think I’ll clarify each area of concern before chipping in my own thoughts, concerns, and recommendations. Here we go:

1. The Prowess Skill
Prowess is treated as if it was a Perform skill; each rank gives an additional point of bonus to the roll, and an extra ‘proficiency’ or area in which the roll can be made. Current suggestions for proficiencies include conventional (by position), oral (by gender), masturbation (by gender), sodomy, toys, submission, domination and bondage. When making a generalised (Soft Focus) check, roll at your highest bonus (on the assumption your are going to be applying your area of expertise)

There aren’t a great deal of different proficiencies, but this is fine: a given adventurer becomes really rather good with a handful of ranks, and needn’t go beyonds this (they probably have better places to put their skill ranks in, anyway), unless they are a sexual-orientated character, in which case they probably want them! As far as I can tell, this area needs no more tuning beyonds a write-up (volunteers, anyone?) of the Prowess skill.

2. Feats
Sexual feats are still in existence, and mostly give bonuses to areas outside conventional application of the Prowess skill by dropping Arousal penalties, bolstering spellcasting, distracting enemies, etc. Those feats that are purely sexual in nature have profound effect, dropping key modifiers to the mechanics (eg. affecting Size Matters, decreasing penalty for multiple partners, and so on).

Again clear in my view. The key concern here is balance - we should weight it so that a character in a non-sexual campaign would find them of little use, a character in a campaign with sexual elements would consider them alongside conventional feats, and a strongly sexualised character would take little else. All feats should fit in not only with D&D flavour, but also the style of feats used in D&D. Hence, I would advise making them clear, basic, and involving no mechanics of their own beyonds a possible skill check, attack roll or save.

3. Tricks (Now ‘Carnal Arts’)
The current consensus is that Carnal Arts are not paid for, instead being available whenever a person meets a given prerequisite in terms of skill ranks and feats, at which point a person is automatically able to perform them. Some may be limited by times per day or condition (eg. may not be Fatigued or Exhausted), and some may have negative side-effects (eg. Sexual Fatigue being incurred).

Now this, in my opinion, is the area we have to be most careful in. The NUCK suffered from being to unwieldy in terms of mechanics due to an inundation of Tricks - a given person could take a good minute just working out which modifiers to apply. To make these clearer, we should limit the number and application of Arts and bolster the clarity until a given character knows exactly what each do and when they can be used (at least to the degree that a fighter knows her feat and maneouver mechanics and a wizard knows his spell effects).

If they are being used in conjunction with Feats, we should lay down which mechanical role is being played by each category - some effects give straight bonuses, some let you get things done outside conventional rules, some change conventional rules, etc. etc. We must decide how the two correlate.

To finish with, a little personal idea: perhaps each of the Carnal Arts requires a feat to unlock, featuring multiple techniques in each? This would limit how many things a given person to do, adding specialisation and, by extension, flavour to a given character through their choices. See the example below for one way this could be manifested:

ART OF THE HALFLING HARLOT (Carnal Art)
You are familiar with the techniques of the Halfling Harlot, as passed down within the trade of smaller prostitutes through the ages.
Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the techniques of the Halfling Harlot a number of times equal to your Constitution modifer before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the techniques of the Halfling Harlot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the techniques an additional nmber of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.

ART OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

The following techniques may be used a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier for each time you take the related feat. After this, each application counts as a round spent Climaxed for the purposes of working out Sexual Fatigue.

Application of a Carnal Art technique is treated as a free action, and multiple techniques may be used in a round with no penalty, although all count against a users daily usage.

Accomodating - Requires 3 ranks of Prowess
Borne of steely nerve and avid willpower, Accomodating allows a given character to automatically succeed at the Fortitude save incurred from the Size Matters rules to reduce damage taken.
Muscle Relaxation - Requires 6 ranks of Prowess
By relaxing the muscles in a given orifice, using this technique allows the character to increase the size category of any of their orifices by one half. When a character gains 12 ranks in Sexual Prowess, they may increase the size by one whole category.
Selfless Lover - Requires 6 ranks of Prowess
In a situation where both partners are making Prowess checks against each other, a character using this technique may receive a bonus of up to +5 to their roll, imposing an equal penalty on their partner’s check.
Feign Pain - Requires 9 ranks of Prowess
The character has a knack for acting - when the character receives damage during sexual activity, treat the damage incurred as if it was the maximum possible that could be incurred for the purposes of partners with the Sadism fetish; use the maximum value of a damage roll, treat Fortitude saves as failed and so on, regardless of how much is actually dealt.
Induce Sadism - Requires 15 ranks of Prowess
The moans and screams of the character arouses the sadist in anyone - all partners and onlookers (!) gain the Sadism fetish whilst this technique is being used.

What do you think?

Death By Surfeit

 

[Gez]

To finish with, a little personal idea: perhaps each of the Carnal Arts requires a feat to unlock, featuring multiple techniques in each?

As I said, if we mirror the way the martial arts style works, we may use feat prerequisites, but that isn't however an obligation. Some simple arts may very well don't require special feats.

I would like that, if we use feat prerequisites for some arts, then these feats should not necessarily be special sexual feats. Some general purposes feats would be totally appropriated in this context.

For example, what about these prerequisites for the way of the halfling harlot: Con 13, Sexual Prowess 3 ranks or more, either Toughness or Endurance, and Iron Will ?

 

[VVrayven]

Well DbS (and Gez), you again impress me with your ability to sum up and rewrite. I love all your concepts and the idea of having Caral Art forms. We will need a master list of "sex tricks" from which to construct each of these Carnal Art Forms and their entry feat. The Prereqs for these Carnal Art forms can be anything from other Carnal Arts Feats, to other feats, to ranks in sexual prowess, to ability scores, to specific prof in sexual prowess, to a specific kink, or to specific sex tricks granted by a previous Carnal Art. I think we will need at the minimum 5-10 Carnal Art forms for the book, with provisions on how to make new ones. I'd perfer about 15 in the book total.

As for the sexual prowess skill... I don't think anyone with 25 ranks will have a problem selected new proficienes. Here is my list of the seperate prof. for sexual prowess:

Conventional (Matrimonial, Riding, Frontal, Inverted, Half-Facing, X, Standing, Rear, Headdown, Negresse, etc..), Exotic (by exotic position), Oral (by gender), Masturbation (by gender), Sodomy, Toys, Submission, Domination, and Bondage (simple, hanging, inverted, etc...).

As for a master list of sex tricks... We can forget about balancing them here because they won't be freely picked, they will only be a part of a Carnal Art as dictated by a Feat. The balancing will come in by selecting a group of Sex Tricks to become a Carnal Art. Here is what I have so far:

Sexual Tricks

Adaptive Lover - No penalty with specific type of creature.

Coordinated Lover - No penalty to an additional lover (scales with SP).

Creative Lover - 1.5 X INT Mod when using.

Delay Orgasm - Bonus to your Fort save vs pleasure.

Dexterous Lover - 1.5 X DEX Mod when using.

Disease Resistance - Resistant to STDs.

Easy to Read - Give partner bonus to their Prowess checks.

Enduring Lover - Increase your CON Mod by one for sexual purposes (scales with SP).

Forceful Lover - 2.0 X STR Mod when using.

Greedy Lover - Subtract your prowess and add it to partners (up to +/-5).

Instant Withdrawal - Bonus to birth control.

Intense Lover - Force willing partner to fail their Fort save on a DC 20.

Intuitive Lover - 1.5 X WIS Mod when using.

Inventive Lover - 2.0 X INT Mod when using.

Masochism - Add subdual damage to SP check.

Accomodating - Auto Fort save when "Size Matters".

Muscle Relaxation (oral,anal,vaginal) - Allows larger objects.

Muscular Control (oral,anal) - Bonus when being penetrated.

Powerful Lover - 1.5 X STR Mod when using.

Quick Recovery - Less time in down state.

Responsive - Bonus to partner's Prowess check.

Sadism - Add subdual to prowess checks.

Selfless Lover - Subtract partners prowess and add it to yours (up to +/-5).

Sexual Combination - Use two ability scores.

Sexual Expertise - Subtract Prowess add as penalty to their fort save.

Smooth Lover - 1.5 X CHA Mod when using.

Spiritual Lover - 2.0 X WIS Mod when using.

Stunning Pleasure - Stunned on Peaked, no prowess roles.

Talk Dirty - Bonus to using other skills to gain arousal.

Tantric Lore - Bonus to Fort save against pleasure.

Teasing Lover - Partner instantly makes their Fort save on DC 20.

Wild Lover - 2.0 X DEX Mod when using.

Extra Mile - Double time to Fatigue.

Fit Lover - 1.5 X CON Mod when using.

Conditioned Lover - 2.0 X CON Mod when using.

So before we start rampantly making Carnal Arts packages. We need to decide on if this is what we are doing and then make this master list somewhat concrete, add more to it, assess some basic ranks, decide which ones should be used without the feat, and devise how we make a Carnal Art form.

Just let me know where to burn my energy and I'll go for it.

Edit: Force Pleasure and Force Victim have been removed from my compilation of the previous threads due to PC and sensitivty issues. If we want to discuss this we can. Personally I'm good either way.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Force Pleasure - Drop Rape Bonus by half.

Force Victim - Cause Horny Status while peaked.

OK, I like the idea in theory of sex rules for D&D and I'm not prudish about discussing them, however...

the tone of this thread has been to basically introduce rules for rape, and moreso rape that the victim will like. Using the current system, it is aparently reasonable for a "really good lover" to violently rape a target into submission, love, even 'thrall' because they're just so good.

This isn't just disgusting or misogynistic, its outside of reality (and most fantasy other than henti and bond flicks).

In the interest of constructive criticism (and because it would be nice to have a mature suplement as long as it shows some maturity) I would recomend the following changes -

Distinguish between unwilling as "I have a headache, I need to get this work done, I'd feel bad about cheating" from a condition in which a person does not under any circumstances wish to have sex with someone else. Grey areas are possible obviously, but the current one size fits all is all wrong.

If a person is raped, reaction modifiers are switched from the normal direction. Some rape victims do have orgasms, it does not cause them to like their attacker.

Having any of the above feats (unless the definition of unwilling is changed on some) strongly effects allignment.

I suppose I could just wait till playtesting and see what happens when a male character is gang raped by the orc warband and then told "and now you're charmed by them", but...

I imagine I could be accused of politicising this thread. The political implications are already there, I just want them out in the open.

Kahuna burger