Advanced casting Paladin?

[Thurbane]

Just curious about a thought I had.

Say you were to give a Paladin the Bard's spell per day progression table (minus 0, 5th and 6th level spells), so he can begin casting at 2nd level, what would he need to give up to balance this drastic increase in casting?

Would dropping his HD to d8 and dropping his armor proficiency to medium be enough?

All thoughts welcome.

... 	1st 	2nd 	3rd 	4th 
1st	—	—	—	—
2nd	0	—	—	—
3rd	1	—	—	—
4th	2	0	—	—
5th	3	1	—	—
6th	3	2	—	—
7th	3	2	0	—
8th	3	3	1	—
9th	3	3	2	—
10th	3	3	2	0
11th	3	3	3	1
12th	3	3	3	2
13th	3	3	3	2
14th	3	3	3	3
15th	4	3	3	3
16th	4	4	3	3
17th	4	4	4	3
18th	4	4	4	4
19th	4	4	4	4
20th	4	4	4	4

 

[FireLance]

My first observation is that the paladin's spells per day no longer improves from level 18 on. You might want to tweak the spells per day to adjust for this.

Instead of changing Hit Dice and armor proficiency, another possibility is to limit his spells known by giving the paladin a prayerbook like a wizard's spellbook, or by making him a spontaneous caster like a favored soul and using the bard's spells known table.

Otherwise, the hit die reduction and loss of medium armor does hamper the paladin's ability to engage in front-line melee and makes it more dangerous to use his key class ability to smite evil. On balance, if you do want to do so, I'd recommend adding another spellcasting benefit, e.g. giving the paladin a 3/4 progression for caster level.

 

[green slime]

Nothing. If it suits yoiur campaign, just go for it.

Believe me, there won't be a big rush to play paladins anyway.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There are only 2 noteworthy spells on the Paladin list: Blessed Weapon and Holy Sword.

Blessed Weapon comes only very slightly earlier. Do not worry over that one.

The question is whether Holy Sword at 11th level is worth making an adjustment.

This change is not big enough to be worth a feat. I might delay the Special Mount progression by ~2 levels.

But, as others have pointed out, this is not a big enough change to actually make the class attractive. MAD and mechanical/design issues with respect to multiclassing/PrCs make the class very inflexible.

I am not sure a such a change is worth making any adjustment at all.

 

[szilard]

There are only 2 noteworthy spells on the Paladin list: Blessed Weapon and Holy Sword.

Not if you include the Spell Compendium...

-Stuart

 

[gnfnrf]

Does this version of the paladin cast spells with caster level=class level, like a bard, or caster level=class level/2, like a paladin?

If the former, several noncore spells need to be banned/fixed (Righteous Aura, I'm looking at your) and the power level increase is more significant.

If the latter, the early access to spells will help for some which are not level dependent, and suck for others, which are. For example, Break Enchantment will not be useful to gain access to earlier. Holy Sword will be neat, but short duration, and so on.

I'd say, for the full caster level version, HD and armor aren't going to cut it. The class needs to get cut to 3/4 BAB, but now you've just remade the martial cleric.

So probably the half caster version is the only way to go. d8 HD is a more compelling change than armor proficiency, but maybe something else needs to be changed as well, like cutting some other paladin ability.

--
gnfnrf

 

[Jack99]

IMC; i have have given the paladin an earlier start for his spells (start at first if you have enough wisdom) ending with being able to cast 4 spells of each spell level at level 20, and I have made him a spontaneous caster.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I hope you all realize that removing d8 and heavy armor profiiciency would be the equivalent of docking the class 2 precious feats. That is certainly a good way to guarantee that the changes are irrelevant...

 

[Diirk]

Does this version of the paladin cast spells with caster level=class level, like a bard, or caster level=class level/2, like a paladin?

If the former, several noncore spells need to be banned/fixed (Righteous Aura, I'm looking at your) and the power level increase is more significant.

Firstly, how so ? Its effectively capped at 10th caster level anyway, and you don't get it until 7th caster level, so the difference between full caster and half caster progressions don't really make much difference.

Secondly, who cares? Its a spell that goes off when you die. A situation most people strive to avoid.