Adventurers under siege
- Thread starter Gwaihir
- Start date
diaglo
Adventurer
it really depends on your players...
there are several adventures available from previous editions. 2edADnD in particular was full of them.
it can boil down to a mass combat game, a resource management game ala a Sim, or it can be a straightforward combat with the PCs as heroes for one side or the other much like in Heroes of Battle or other books along that line.
there are several adventures available from previous editions. 2edADnD in particular was full of them.
it can boil down to a mass combat game, a resource management game ala a Sim, or it can be a straightforward combat with the PCs as heroes for one side or the other much like in Heroes of Battle or other books along that line.
orangefruitbat
Adventurer
Give the PCs good maps of their location and a good breakdown of their forces (if any) so they can plan ahead. This sort of thing is where miniatures really shine, though the 5' square scale can be problematic if it's anything larger than a small keep (I sugest switching to 10' or 30' squares).
Abstract combat between NPC combatants to speed things up (just do average damage, etc). Abtract HP of 'mook' opponents of the PCs - most of the time, a hit will either 'wound' or kill the enemy soldier. Two hits always takes one down.
Keep the PCs moving - they can't just fight at the gates - keep them running, force them to spread out and hold differnet positions.
Make the PCs work for their victories - enemies will spread out to avoid being blown away en masse by fireballs, they will aid each other to take down PCs, they will create diversions to lure away defenders. They will have spellcasters of their own to protect their assets (counterspelling works well here).
Keep turns moving - allow the players to plan ahead (maybe 30 minutes to an hour), but once the enemy shows up, keep the pace quick. Don't allow decisions by comittee, especially when PCs are separate from each other.
Abstract combat between NPC combatants to speed things up (just do average damage, etc). Abtract HP of 'mook' opponents of the PCs - most of the time, a hit will either 'wound' or kill the enemy soldier. Two hits always takes one down.
Keep the PCs moving - they can't just fight at the gates - keep them running, force them to spread out and hold differnet positions.
Make the PCs work for their victories - enemies will spread out to avoid being blown away en masse by fireballs, they will aid each other to take down PCs, they will create diversions to lure away defenders. They will have spellcasters of their own to protect their assets (counterspelling works well here).
Keep turns moving - allow the players to plan ahead (maybe 30 minutes to an hour), but once the enemy shows up, keep the pace quick. Don't allow decisions by comittee, especially when PCs are separate from each other.
Haltherrion
First Post
Gwaihir said:
I'd suggest using the siege and the presence of armies as a backdrop and letting the PCs focus on some portion of the siege that lends itself to party-size combat. Maybe they have to run a message through the lines for instance.
If you do want to have the players fight as part of a larger battle, be very careful how you do this as it can either get very boring (as you march all the NPCs around) or seem very irrelevant (if the actions of the players really don't matter).
One poster suggested abstracting combat with lots of NPC. This is a good suggestion although be careful that it doesn't take too much time (abstracting the action of thousands can still take a huge amount of time) and doesn't seem too abstract: you really need to be a good story teller to pull this off and be able to narrate the "off scene" stuff in a quick but colorful manner. Otherwise, it just sounds a little stiff and will detract from the mood.
Better yet, if you want the players to be a small part of a big battle, put them in a contained part of the larger battlefield. They can be defending a tower, on the wall at the point of attack, in the siege tower, in the citadel, etc. Put them at a choke point. In real-life historical sieges, these often came down to typical D&D size party engagements.
Another poster's suggestion to have good maps is a very valid one that I heartily agree with. Sieges are confusing. Without a map to guide your players, you may lose a lot of the impact. I fyou expect the players to guide the siege defense or attack you *must* have a map. How are they supposed to know do without understanding the battlefield?
One last point, while I have had long and bloody arguments about what effect D&D-class magic would have on fortifications which need not be repeated here, histortically forces inside a castle were sometimes very small. King Edward I's garrisons in Wales were in the range of 20, sometimes less. As long as your attackers do not have magic or creatures to negate the basic utility of a stout wall (teleport, rock to mud, griffons, etc.) then you could have a small PC-ish party size group on the inside and leave the army on the outside. That will greatly simplify your task as a ref.
Ralts Bloodthorne
First Post
I've done it repeatedly. A lot of player's play Paladin's or Legionairres (Stygian Wave or Iron Legion) to get some extra skills that can help with what they see as an eventual siege.
From forting up in a half-ruined building and holding off waves of undead/kobolds/elven guerillas/demons/possessed beggars to manning the walls of Novak-Eck during the Siege of Night that took place during the Winter War.
The characters took part on the assault side of the Siege of Vak Cinter, besieging and sacking over a dozen cities with the armies that were with.
It works great, my players love it, and I love it too.
It's part of Epic Adventuring, Legendary Tale Building, etc.
A good rule of thumb I've figured out is take the number of attackers in an assault wave, divide by the number of defenders, and that's how many the PC's need to kill for thier section of the wall to hold. Every additional one expands how far thier influence helped hold.
I've had PC's charge across a siege ladder and enter the siege tower and fire a fireball straight down into the tower. Pour lead on a Cambion General and yell: "WE'LL SURRENDER WHEN YOU POUND ALL THIS UP YOUR ASS!" and fun stuff like that.
One of the group's favorite memories is when the group's mage was on the wall, casting spells, and a dragon took a ballista hit, and slammed into the mage, just obliterating him under 10 tons of dragon meat.
Seiges can be great fun, and a prime opportunity for characters to perform heroic feats that later they'll hear bards singing about in taverns.
From forting up in a half-ruined building and holding off waves of undead/kobolds/elven guerillas/demons/possessed beggars to manning the walls of Novak-Eck during the Siege of Night that took place during the Winter War.
The characters took part on the assault side of the Siege of Vak Cinter, besieging and sacking over a dozen cities with the armies that were with.
It works great, my players love it, and I love it too.
It's part of Epic Adventuring, Legendary Tale Building, etc.
A good rule of thumb I've figured out is take the number of attackers in an assault wave, divide by the number of defenders, and that's how many the PC's need to kill for thier section of the wall to hold. Every additional one expands how far thier influence helped hold.
I've had PC's charge across a siege ladder and enter the siege tower and fire a fireball straight down into the tower. Pour lead on a Cambion General and yell: "WE'LL SURRENDER WHEN YOU POUND ALL THIS UP YOUR ASS!" and fun stuff like that.
One of the group's favorite memories is when the group's mage was on the wall, casting spells, and a dragon took a ballista hit, and slammed into the mage, just obliterating him under 10 tons of dragon meat.
Seiges can be great fun, and a prime opportunity for characters to perform heroic feats that later they'll hear bards singing about in taverns.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Last week I played a very interesting session. We were in a small town that was being overrun by a large army of orcs commanded by their drow masters. Some of it worked and some of it didn't, so I'll give a bit of an action report:
The DM had drawn up a small scale map of the village. Initially, we just noted what house we were staying in when the assault began, but very quickly, the party split up. Our archer was hit by a drow arrow as soon as he stepped out the door and fell to the sleep poison. (If only he'd taken fighter levels instead of Order of the Bow Initiate, he would have passed--though he'd probably have passed with a good cloak of resistance too
. The rogue and bard stepped out and were immediately hit by a glitterdust. My character dragged the archer back into the building and hid in the shadows as he went out. (You see, if you use the hide skill, they have to spot you and with the distance modifiers for 200 feet of distance, that's pretty difficult even if you have no hide skill at all (and my character is pretty good at it)).
This is one of the things that didn't work. Placing drow archers in the tops of trees surrounding the village put more than a slight strain on believability. But once everyone said "I hide, taking the penalty for moving full speed as I duck between the shadows" they pretty much went away.
So, my character made it to where he could see the front gate and the militia massing (not that there was really a mass), but there was no way to see what was going on outside--no arrow-slits or anything. (So, make sure the fortifications are at least marginally competent--you don't need firing ports everywhere, but at least have a block-house and a few observation points and make sure the block house has line of sight to the gate. Even villagers in a dangerous D&D world should have access to someone with enough experience to know some of the basic requirements of fortification--someone probably served in an army or a mercenary company or something). Meanwhile, the other characters made it to the south end of the palisade where they could see large groups of orcs advancing with tower shields. They prepared to hold the inevitable breach as well as they could.
Then the orcs broke through. The DM had this take one round as they stowed their tower shields and pulled out greataxes on the way up and then power attacked through the wall. Really, it probably should take longer than that. (It would probably be good for building up tension as well). The druid summoned a lion that pounced (well actually, just attacked, grappled and raked) the first orc, killing him on a final critical. At this point we realize that, if it takes 55 or so points of damage to put down one orc and we can see over sixty, there's no hope of victory. Especially when three other orcs kill the summoned lion in one round. (That leaves four orcs in the initial group of eight who still were going to get to act if anyone is counting). The druid cast fog cloud over the area and retreated. The bard and the glitterdusted rogue found a house to hide in (hoping that the spell would wear off before orcs kicked in the door.
What worked at this point: The feeling of inevitability. We were supposed to lose--it was just a question of how many of us would escape and if anyone would try to make a valiant last stand. Once the first orcs made it through the palisade, it was pretty obvious we weren't going to win. However, this created some believability problems as well. The militia at the gate were being pushed back but the orcs didn't cleave through them like they cleaved through the lion. Now, the militia were obviously far inferior to us in skill, but they were holding off groups of orcs that would kick our party's collective tail. It made escape possible, but like I said, there were some believability problems. It might have been better to simply double the number of orcs and make them lower level. So the lion kills one orc and grapples another then all of the others combine to bring it down--or maybe the druid, dire wolf companion, and lion are able to hold out for two rounds--either way, we'll have to abandon ship once the druid runs out of lions or the militia is beaten and twice as many orcs start coming towards the rear. Anyway, if the DM had used more orcs but weaker ones, it would have been more believable that the militia could hold them back for a little while at the gates--there's only room for so many orcs after all.
Then, our characters got down to the nitty gritty of trying to escape. Some orcs had broken through the northern palisade and moved to the temple of Lathander where one of the priestesses and some of the townsfolk had holed up. My character made his way through the buildings, hiding, with the vague intent of using his once per day cold substituted lightning bolt from his sword (more or less what it is) on them and hoping they weren't as tough as the orcs at the south wall and that he'd be able to take a few people with him on his escape--either that or include them in the cold bolt and at least give them a less painful death than the orcs would. At this point, it became necessary to draw the section out in 5' scale to tell how many orcs he could line up (the DM tells me "you can get three orcs"; I reply "put them on the map--I'm pretty sure I'll be able to manage twice that many) and also to see how close I could sneak (and what route I would have to take) without any of them having unobstructed line of sight. So we did that. Meanwhile another PC whose player had been gone for a couple months showed up with a band of rangers and silenced the drow archers and made his way to the south wall. My PC saw one orc, took a chance on sneak attacking him to try to get closer and discovered that he was just as tough as the orcs at the south wall (so the cold bolt wouldn't have done any good anyway). So, I make my way back around the buildings trying to keep ahead of an ever-growing mob of orcs (and to make the one's following me cautious--fortunately, my PC has elusive target and spring attack and he can do that kind of thing--especially when he's being chased by orcs in banded mail). As I move, we discover that we need to basically draw the whole town in. Eventually, my PC makes it into the druid's fog cloud and out into the forest where he can hide pretty effectively. About half-way through the chase, the PC slept by the drow arrow is coup de graced by an orc who kicks in the door and finds him there, and the other PCs come out of the building (the glitterdust wore off) and make their way to the southern wall.
This last bit worked pretty well (and probably would have worked even better with somewhat weaker orcs--my PC could have left a few bodies behind him rather than just some injured orcs and might have been tempted to make a last stand; that kind of thing is a whole lot less tempting when it's clear you'll be lucky to take one with you). It did show, however, that we should have drawn the entire town out in 5x5 scale at the start. (For a larger siege, this isn't practical, but you should certainly keep as much of it to scale as possible--if PCs split up or decide on different routes, it will be important exactly where they are and what challenges they will have to face to either get away or get to where they are needed).
So those are some lessons on what worked and what didn't from my last session.
The DM had drawn up a small scale map of the village. Initially, we just noted what house we were staying in when the assault began, but very quickly, the party split up. Our archer was hit by a drow arrow as soon as he stepped out the door and fell to the sleep poison. (If only he'd taken fighter levels instead of Order of the Bow Initiate, he would have passed--though he'd probably have passed with a good cloak of resistance too
. The rogue and bard stepped out and were immediately hit by a glitterdust. My character dragged the archer back into the building and hid in the shadows as he went out. (You see, if you use the hide skill, they have to spot you and with the distance modifiers for 200 feet of distance, that's pretty difficult even if you have no hide skill at all (and my character is pretty good at it)).This is one of the things that didn't work. Placing drow archers in the tops of trees surrounding the village put more than a slight strain on believability. But once everyone said "I hide, taking the penalty for moving full speed as I duck between the shadows" they pretty much went away.
So, my character made it to where he could see the front gate and the militia massing (not that there was really a mass), but there was no way to see what was going on outside--no arrow-slits or anything. (So, make sure the fortifications are at least marginally competent--you don't need firing ports everywhere, but at least have a block-house and a few observation points and make sure the block house has line of sight to the gate. Even villagers in a dangerous D&D world should have access to someone with enough experience to know some of the basic requirements of fortification--someone probably served in an army or a mercenary company or something). Meanwhile, the other characters made it to the south end of the palisade where they could see large groups of orcs advancing with tower shields. They prepared to hold the inevitable breach as well as they could.
Then the orcs broke through. The DM had this take one round as they stowed their tower shields and pulled out greataxes on the way up and then power attacked through the wall. Really, it probably should take longer than that. (It would probably be good for building up tension as well). The druid summoned a lion that pounced (well actually, just attacked, grappled and raked) the first orc, killing him on a final critical. At this point we realize that, if it takes 55 or so points of damage to put down one orc and we can see over sixty, there's no hope of victory. Especially when three other orcs kill the summoned lion in one round. (That leaves four orcs in the initial group of eight who still were going to get to act if anyone is counting). The druid cast fog cloud over the area and retreated. The bard and the glitterdusted rogue found a house to hide in (hoping that the spell would wear off before orcs kicked in the door.
What worked at this point: The feeling of inevitability. We were supposed to lose--it was just a question of how many of us would escape and if anyone would try to make a valiant last stand. Once the first orcs made it through the palisade, it was pretty obvious we weren't going to win. However, this created some believability problems as well. The militia at the gate were being pushed back but the orcs didn't cleave through them like they cleaved through the lion. Now, the militia were obviously far inferior to us in skill, but they were holding off groups of orcs that would kick our party's collective tail. It made escape possible, but like I said, there were some believability problems. It might have been better to simply double the number of orcs and make them lower level. So the lion kills one orc and grapples another then all of the others combine to bring it down--or maybe the druid, dire wolf companion, and lion are able to hold out for two rounds--either way, we'll have to abandon ship once the druid runs out of lions or the militia is beaten and twice as many orcs start coming towards the rear. Anyway, if the DM had used more orcs but weaker ones, it would have been more believable that the militia could hold them back for a little while at the gates--there's only room for so many orcs after all.
Then, our characters got down to the nitty gritty of trying to escape. Some orcs had broken through the northern palisade and moved to the temple of Lathander where one of the priestesses and some of the townsfolk had holed up. My character made his way through the buildings, hiding, with the vague intent of using his once per day cold substituted lightning bolt from his sword (more or less what it is) on them and hoping they weren't as tough as the orcs at the south wall and that he'd be able to take a few people with him on his escape--either that or include them in the cold bolt and at least give them a less painful death than the orcs would. At this point, it became necessary to draw the section out in 5' scale to tell how many orcs he could line up (the DM tells me "you can get three orcs"; I reply "put them on the map--I'm pretty sure I'll be able to manage twice that many) and also to see how close I could sneak (and what route I would have to take) without any of them having unobstructed line of sight. So we did that. Meanwhile another PC whose player had been gone for a couple months showed up with a band of rangers and silenced the drow archers and made his way to the south wall. My PC saw one orc, took a chance on sneak attacking him to try to get closer and discovered that he was just as tough as the orcs at the south wall (so the cold bolt wouldn't have done any good anyway). So, I make my way back around the buildings trying to keep ahead of an ever-growing mob of orcs (and to make the one's following me cautious--fortunately, my PC has elusive target and spring attack and he can do that kind of thing--especially when he's being chased by orcs in banded mail). As I move, we discover that we need to basically draw the whole town in. Eventually, my PC makes it into the druid's fog cloud and out into the forest where he can hide pretty effectively. About half-way through the chase, the PC slept by the drow arrow is coup de graced by an orc who kicks in the door and finds him there, and the other PCs come out of the building (the glitterdust wore off) and make their way to the southern wall.
This last bit worked pretty well (and probably would have worked even better with somewhat weaker orcs--my PC could have left a few bodies behind him rather than just some injured orcs and might have been tempted to make a last stand; that kind of thing is a whole lot less tempting when it's clear you'll be lucky to take one with you). It did show, however, that we should have drawn the entire town out in 5x5 scale at the start. (For a larger siege, this isn't practical, but you should certainly keep as much of it to scale as possible--if PCs split up or decide on different routes, it will be important exactly where they are and what challenges they will have to face to either get away or get to where they are needed).
So those are some lessons on what worked and what didn't from my last session.
I've done it twice, once with a MERP module and once with the 2nd Edition version of "Return to the Keep on the Borderlands" -- the temple forces got tired of being raided, so they sent out almost everything they had to try to sack the keep one night.
In both cases, I did not abstract the combat at all -- combat was, naturally, a lot easier to run to in 1st Edition (what I was playing at the time) then in 3.5 e, but I still think it was worth. It's reasonable (in 1 e) to run a battle of up to about 100 attackers and a lower number of defenders -- 20-40, depending on how much difference the PCs and the fortifications make.
The key elements were to have some healing available for the PCs and the defenders -- stashed potions, low level clerics, well-designed fortifications, perhaps with escape routes, and play the NPC's from both sides realistically and well. The assault on the Keep was my "best DMing ever" according to my players, and the reason is the tension was edge of your seat the whole time. The PC's spent a lot of time running from one part of the Keep to the other, as different enemy units tried different ways to get in.
At the end, the PCs, civilians, and NPC militia had all retreated to the great hall of the dunjeon -- the main fortress of the Keep. I had designed the floorplan for that myself, and the PC's were using fire and holy water and piled up furniture to try to keep the undead attackers out. In the end, they barely won, and the remaining enemy retreated.
Another idea I had as a TPK preventer is that since the PC's had sent a messenger for aid, and a bird with a message, I might do the "armies from Siberia have been transferred" thing, and have the cavalry (literally) show up in the nick of time. I did have one additional ranger who had been mentioned but wasn't in town when the battle started arrive with some timely help to let the PC's retreat from an outpost -- an run a gauntlet of zombies back to the fortress, but the 7th cavalry wasn't needed.
It's fun, fun, fun stuff!
In both cases, I did not abstract the combat at all -- combat was, naturally, a lot easier to run to in 1st Edition (what I was playing at the time) then in 3.5 e, but I still think it was worth. It's reasonable (in 1 e) to run a battle of up to about 100 attackers and a lower number of defenders -- 20-40, depending on how much difference the PCs and the fortifications make.
The key elements were to have some healing available for the PCs and the defenders -- stashed potions, low level clerics, well-designed fortifications, perhaps with escape routes, and play the NPC's from both sides realistically and well. The assault on the Keep was my "best DMing ever" according to my players, and the reason is the tension was edge of your seat the whole time. The PC's spent a lot of time running from one part of the Keep to the other, as different enemy units tried different ways to get in.
At the end, the PCs, civilians, and NPC militia had all retreated to the great hall of the dunjeon -- the main fortress of the Keep. I had designed the floorplan for that myself, and the PC's were using fire and holy water and piled up furniture to try to keep the undead attackers out. In the end, they barely won, and the remaining enemy retreated.
Another idea I had as a TPK preventer is that since the PC's had sent a messenger for aid, and a bird with a message, I might do the "armies from Siberia have been transferred" thing, and have the cavalry (literally) show up in the nick of time. I did have one additional ranger who had been mentioned but wasn't in town when the battle started arrive with some timely help to let the PC's retreat from an outpost -- an run a gauntlet of zombies back to the fortress, but the 7th cavalry wasn't needed.
It's fun, fun, fun stuff!
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Gwaihir said:
Yep. In an IRC playtest session of Bronze set during the Salt Wars (salt was, at the time, a commodity valued more than gold), the PCs found themselves under seige in a small fort on the southern border of the salt flats between Halandor and Urkal (two of a potentially endless number of city states that dot the western coast of Karthum). Halandor is somewhat analogous to Homeric Greece, while Urkal is characterized by its governing body's mastery of clockwork technology and arcane magics.
As Bronze is driven entirely by player choices (i.e., players ordain the outcome of both successful and unsuccessful rolls made on behalf of their characters), it went well. Alkan Fane's brother was the sole PC casualty - he gave his life heroically diving in front of Alkan to deflect an arrow that was let loose when the seige broke on the 8th day and the mercenary bands hired by Urkal (a neighboring city state), along with their clockwork legionnaires, stormed the gates.
Time during the seige was spent discovering a series of tunnels beneath the fort, exploring those tunnels, and planning an escape from the fort using those tunnels if the need arose (it did). The seige itself was contracted into a series of tense communication between PCs and the few remaining survivors of the fort's original compliment, interspersed with dungeon crawl scenes in the tunnels, and ending with a running battle through those tunnels as they began to collapse under the heavy traffic.
As far as the players were concerned, it went great - after all, they got to define every element of actual play as it occurred (right down to Hylen Fane's death).
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