Adventurer's Vault masterwork armours

[Nail]

The three core books are a contained game and should be viewed as such. Any additional books are completely optional. I don't buy that only "half the system" is included. You get the whole system alright, then if you wish more options, the rest of the books are there for you.

I, too, wish this were so.

But if wishes were horses....

The fact is that 4e is designed - far more than 3.xe - to be a "supplement game". You only have to look at the design of PH #1 to see this is true. There's only a little bit of everything in there, but nothing is done completely. If you need further proof, check out the up-coming PH #2, and talk of the future PH #3.

Feel free to buy everything Wizards throws at you, but don't expect others to feel the same.

Your frustration is mis-directed. I'm not advocating that anyone buy anything. I'm just talking about WotC's 4e marketing.

That said, have a nice day. I certainly don't wish to argue about this either, so let's agree to disagree and move on

I've got no idea what you and I are disagreeing about.

 

[Diirk]

No, it doesn't, it's actually rather silly. Theres no reason a paladin in magical godplate armour which is as light and flexible as magic can make it can't be just as nimble as the rogue AND with the heavy armour be better protected. It gets even sillier when when compareing it to int-based defence. Hands up if you think that an 80 year-old scientist should be much harder to hit than a 25 year-old marine.

Even with masterwork armours, theoretically at lvl 30 the max stat one can obtain is 30 (20 starting, 8 bumps from levels, +2 epic destiny) giving +11 armour bonus from hide, +10 stat = +21 AC. Godplate maxes out at +20 AC. While a plate class can pick up a shield for another +2, theoretically so can a rogue with appropriate feats, I think?

So no matter what you do I'm pretty sure light armour classes can get a higher armour class still than heavy armour classes. Which is ridiculous.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've got no idea what you and I are disagreeing about.

Nothing important really. And I'm more and more hesitant to continue this discussion, because I have no quarrel with you.

However, because you asked: you seem to have resigned to the fact 4E is some kind of supplement game, where errata aren't supposed to be applied to the product it references.

I disagree. That's the short answer!


The slightly long-winded answer is: I maintain the useful stance to take is to consider the PHB on its own. I'm certainly not going to buy PHB II & III just because Wizard says I need it for my core game.

Because I don't. You may think the Druid or Barbarian or Gnome is part of the core game, but it isn't. Anymore than the Warlock and Warlord or Tiefling were part of the core game in 3E.

Wizards changed which races, classes etc they offered in the PHB, which I can live with. The Sorcerer isn't any more core than the Warlock. 3E isn't some kind of baseline here. The new set of options in the PHB offers as complete a game as did the 3E PHB.

Now, if Wizards would have left out a crucial gameplay rule, and waited until PHB II to introduce it, then you'd have a point. Then you could say "we need PHBII to play D&D". But because we don't, it's optional.

You don't need to buy the supplements to play D&D.

In fact, if enough of us adopt your resigned stance, then Wizard would get away with awful business decisions like the one about AV MW. On the other hand, whatever we do not accept will not be repeated. The customer tells the manufacturer what to do through voting with their wallets.

So please reconsider. That would be my answer.

 

[Nail]

..you seem to have resigned to the fact 4E is some kind of supplement game, where errata aren't supposed to be applied to the product it references.

FWIW, "resigned" isn't how I feel about it. "Cognizant" is a better fit.

I'm certainly not going to buy PHB II & III just because Wizard says I need it for my core game.

BTW, did you buy 3.xe supplements? Did your group use them?

Currently, in 4e, both my groups have a blanket "accept published WotC books" policy, with the obvious "DM reviews it" caveat. So when Martial Power came out - and I'm currently playing 2 martial PCs - it would have been hard not to purchase the splatbook.

..The new set of options in the PHB offers as complete a game as did the 3E PHB.

That doesn't feel as true to me as I'd like it to.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well look at it this way... 2e edition had a splat for each character class, then a splat for varients of those classes (necro, ninja), then splats for individual parts of DMing... then splats for varients of classes as per campaign settings (complete gladiator, EAFW for Darksun), then splats for the campaigns, then splats for the splats for the campaigns (Planescape I'm lookin at you)...

3rd edition went a different route, with splats for character roles (Complete Warrior, Arcane, etc).

Now we have a splat for each power source (of which there are only three)... and supplements for new classes. It's not even CLOSE to as rediculous as 3rd edition got, which was itself nowhere near as retarded for it as 2nd edition.

The conclusion to be made is, their current strategy involves less player splats, not more. Simple math can show that.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Even with masterwork armours, theoretically at lvl 30 the max stat one can obtain is 30 (20 starting, 8 bumps from levels, +2 epic destiny) giving +11 armour bonus from hide, +10 stat = +21 AC. Godplate maxes out at +20 AC. While a plate class can pick up a shield for another +2, theoretically so can a rogue with appropriate feats, I think?

So no matter what you do I'm pretty sure light armour classes can get a higher armour class still than heavy armour classes. Which is ridiculous.

When 4e came out i did the math. dealing only with stats and armor,

a ranger archer (or any charicter that starts with a 20 in dex or inteligence) vs any character with god plate, essentially tie in terms of armor. I forget the number though. I do remember that a shield breaks the tie.

 

[CapnZapp]

Currently, in 4e, both my groups have a blanket "accept published WotC books" policy, with the obvious "DM reviews it" caveat. So when Martial Power came out - and I'm currently playing 2 martial PCs - it would have been hard not to purchase the splatbook.

Yeah, I know the type.

Cant say I like it. If we had played three characters each through level 30 then maybe. As it is, this line of reasoning just means the PHB gets obsolete before its stuff has been tried out even once...

But I realize thats not the popular approach.

So Ive ruled out Martial Power from a different angle, the fairness angle. It provides so many nifty things for martial characters that others are left out in the cold. It seems as if Im actually going to pull this off (Itll be a while until Divine Power and Arcane Powers out and my argument loses its steam... enjoying it while it lasts!)

 

[Nail]

The conclusion to be made is, their current strategy involves less player splats, not more. Simple math can show that.

...you've got to be kidding. We're only 6 months in! To compare as you suggest, we'd have to look at the first 6 months of 3.0e and compare them to today.

 

[Nail]

So Ive ruled out Martial Power from a different angle, the fairness angle. It provides so many nifty things for martial characters that others are left out in the cold.

That's a good approach. Good thinking!

 

[Nail]

When 4e came out i did the math. dealing only with stats and armor,

a ranger archer (or any charicter that starts with a 20 in dex or inteligence) vs any character with god plate, essentially tie in terms of armor. I forget the number though. I do remember that a shield breaks the tie.

Heavy Armor (Hvy) vs. Hide Armor + ability score (Dex)

Assume for both: 18 Dex, Always bump Dex, No shield, Armor specialization feat ASAP, enhancement of armor at equal level, masterwork armor at equal level, include AV masterwork armors for Plate

Level  Hvy    Dex
1       19     18
2       20     19
3       20     19
4       21     20
5       21     20
6       24     22
7       24     22
8       25     24
9       25     24
10      26     25
11      29     27
12      30     28
13      30     28
14      31     30
15      31     30
16      34     33
17      34     33
18      35     34
19      35     34
20      36     35
21      38     37
22      39     38
23      39     38
24      40     39
25      40     39
26      44     42
27      44     42
28      45     44
29      45     44
30      46     45