Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Munin said:
I guess that's why so much of the advertisement for new books, even apparent "DM only" books is mainly aimed at players, right?
Adventures don't Sell? Do you agree? Redman Article
- Thread starter Belen
- Start date
I guess that's why so much of the advertisement for new books, even apparent "DM only" books is mainly aimed at players, right?
Odhanan
Adventurer
That's a whole another issue. Such as it is now, I feel the RPG business is geared toward veteran role-players, not newbies.
The question of bringing newbies to RPGs isn't solely answered by the accessibility of modules. It would be answered with an accessibility (which does not mean over-simplicity - this is more a question of logistics and organization, not so much a question of amount) of the rules, an accessibility of the products, a strong marketing with derivative products and promotion, and THEN with usable adventures that lead newbies down the path of RPG mastery. And even then, you hit the nerve of the nature of tabletop RPGs: time consuming, a lot of reading and counting... it requires to think, and entertainment and thinking rarely (but sometimes) make out together, so to speak.
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Wow! Old thread! But wait! Look at what this dude wrote two years ago!!!!
God, I'm brilliant.
BiggusGeekus@Work said:
God, I'm brilliant.
Sledge
First Post
I've seen this argument before, but I cannot let it stand!
A D&D module is more akin to getting a vhs tape (not dvd) from your local shop but discovering the tape inside is in a few dozen pieces. So you cut it all together yourself and fill in the missing bits. But hey at least VHS tapes can be had for just a couple bucks right?
Adventures could be priced higher if say they ran a whole campaign, meaning no cutting and pasting back and forth (WLD, Shackled City, etc.) or if they were actually well made. Sadly most adventures fill neither of these requirements and sit on the shelf. Even worse is that since they don't move they prevent retailers from stocking better adventures. My FLGS still has stacks of 3.0 adventures that were designed by people that obviously didn't know 3.0 What can the FLGS do about these? Why would they want more when they know adventures don't move?
Adventures don't have a problem with not selling. Incompetent adventures have just ruined the market.
The 2 hour movie involves no effort on our parts and is in a big screen theater. You're paying for the size of the screen, the sound, and the ease of just sitting back and watching.Zogg said:
A D&D module is more akin to getting a vhs tape (not dvd) from your local shop but discovering the tape inside is in a few dozen pieces. So you cut it all together yourself and fill in the missing bits. But hey at least VHS tapes can be had for just a couple bucks right?
Adventures could be priced higher if say they ran a whole campaign, meaning no cutting and pasting back and forth (WLD, Shackled City, etc.) or if they were actually well made. Sadly most adventures fill neither of these requirements and sit on the shelf. Even worse is that since they don't move they prevent retailers from stocking better adventures. My FLGS still has stacks of 3.0 adventures that were designed by people that obviously didn't know 3.0 What can the FLGS do about these? Why would they want more when they know adventures don't move?
Adventures don't have a problem with not selling. Incompetent adventures have just ruined the market.
Sunderstone
First Post
Just to get it out of the way, I love adventures/modules/mini-settings and I buy alot of them regardless of setting.
I think Treebore mentioned some DMs might be a tad "Lazy" with converting modules to suit their needs. I definately agree here with the exception of Eberron module conversions based on their unique "Final Fantasy-esque" flavor IMO (i.e. warforged, trains, etc).
Seeing Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Freeport on the cover doesnt steer me clear of a module. I convert whatever needs changing, be it subtle (changing NPC names to suit a more FR feel) or larger scale (like replacing an FR lesser known city with the City of Freeport).
The main thing for me about a module is that most of the work is done for me, all I have to do is adapt it to our style or tie it in with my players specific characters and goals. As a long time DM (about 23+ years), I have made a lot of homebrew campaigns, and as each year comes I find I have less time to create my own adventures. I never run adventures as written word for word either, I love to alter them and weave subplots here and there that focus on each character , etc. I just dont have time to make anymore "Epics" of my own from scratch.
So yes, Adventures would earn my money easily.
To also add to the Necromancer Wagon.... Yes. All their modules are that good. I own alot of them. Their product support is top notch, which is like icing on the cake.
The Crucible of Freya for instance, went alot farther than level 1-3 for my group. Using the Wizard's Amulet free prelude and some of the hooks in the downloadable enhancement, we made level 5 easily and found ourselves headed to the Vault of Larin Karr soon after.
My Necro Favorites are Crucible of Freya, Tomb of Abysthor, Vault of Larin Karr, and the Grey Citadel.
I do disagree about Dungeon having 2 sucky adventures out of 4, again this is in my opinion and your mileage may indeed vary. I think Dungeon has gotten better and better every year.
Before 3E, I would by Dungeon here and there. Now, I cant wait to get the next issue. The Eberron adventures are pretty much the only ones that turn me off (again due to their unique "Final Fantasy" flavor). The Shackled City and Age of Worms have been outstanding, and WOW at Sean K. Reynolds recent "Lost Temple of Demogorgon" module.
Other gems like "Mellorn Hospitality" (Russel Brown, Dungeon #107), "Root of Evil" (Mike Mearls, Dungeon #122), "Mad God's Key" (Jason Bulmahn, Dungeon #114) etc. are excellent.
These alone are worth the price of admission. My biggest fear is that people realize that Dungeon is too good to be true and it falls apart (changes in the magazine direction etc).
I wish we could chain Erik Mona to his desk and allow his family visitation sessions
. Every company should have an Erik Mona of their own.
I think Treebore mentioned some DMs might be a tad "Lazy" with converting modules to suit their needs. I definately agree here with the exception of Eberron module conversions based on their unique "Final Fantasy-esque" flavor IMO (i.e. warforged, trains, etc).
Seeing Greyhawk, The Forgotten Realms, Freeport on the cover doesnt steer me clear of a module. I convert whatever needs changing, be it subtle (changing NPC names to suit a more FR feel) or larger scale (like replacing an FR lesser known city with the City of Freeport).
The main thing for me about a module is that most of the work is done for me, all I have to do is adapt it to our style or tie it in with my players specific characters and goals. As a long time DM (about 23+ years), I have made a lot of homebrew campaigns, and as each year comes I find I have less time to create my own adventures. I never run adventures as written word for word either, I love to alter them and weave subplots here and there that focus on each character , etc. I just dont have time to make anymore "Epics" of my own from scratch.
So yes, Adventures would earn my money easily.
To also add to the Necromancer Wagon.... Yes. All their modules are that good. I own alot of them. Their product support is top notch, which is like icing on the cake.
The Crucible of Freya for instance, went alot farther than level 1-3 for my group. Using the Wizard's Amulet free prelude and some of the hooks in the downloadable enhancement, we made level 5 easily and found ourselves headed to the Vault of Larin Karr soon after.
My Necro Favorites are Crucible of Freya, Tomb of Abysthor, Vault of Larin Karr, and the Grey Citadel.
I do disagree about Dungeon having 2 sucky adventures out of 4, again this is in my opinion and your mileage may indeed vary. I think Dungeon has gotten better and better every year.
Before 3E, I would by Dungeon here and there. Now, I cant wait to get the next issue. The Eberron adventures are pretty much the only ones that turn me off (again due to their unique "Final Fantasy" flavor). The Shackled City and Age of Worms have been outstanding, and WOW at Sean K. Reynolds recent "Lost Temple of Demogorgon" module.
Other gems like "Mellorn Hospitality" (Russel Brown, Dungeon #107), "Root of Evil" (Mike Mearls, Dungeon #122), "Mad God's Key" (Jason Bulmahn, Dungeon #114) etc. are excellent.
These alone are worth the price of admission. My biggest fear is that people realize that Dungeon is too good to be true and it falls apart (changes in the magazine direction etc).
I wish we could chain Erik Mona to his desk and allow his family visitation sessions
. Every company should have an Erik Mona of their own.
Grimstaff
Explorer
As a DM, I cant really get my head around the opinion expressed by a few people that they would rather have more story in their purchased modules than dungeon (or, "I dont need the details on the Star of Death, I need a plot instead"). In my opinion, story is way to intimate to each group's campaign to be purchased out of a store. Each group has different characters, alignments, motives, backgrounds, etc. Personally, I would rather spend more time myself on coming up with a story that suits my group than drawing and filling a dungeon.
But that's just my opinion.
As to the marketability of modules, as an innocent bystander, here are some interesting observations I've made:
1) When d20 was first released, tons of modules were released, from lots of companies.
2) d20 modules, btw, take a LONG time to play by and large. Two or three combats can fill up a good 4 hour session.
3) After about 18 months or so, modules stopped selling, or slowed to a trickle at least.
4) Here we are in 2005, and people are clamoring for modules again!
Am I crazy, or did it just take a long time for people to actually play all the modules they bought back when d20 got started? I mean, I talk to people who have been playing Rappan Athuk, Banewarrens, or RtToEE, for years! (Not to mention WLD, you guys must all have 28 Constitutions!)
If you're looking for good, short, generic, adventures, Dungeon Crawl Classics from Goodman Games are probably what you're looking for, and Necromancer is having some similar deals distributed by Kenzer coming up very shortly that look like they'll be fun too.
But that's just my opinion.
As to the marketability of modules, as an innocent bystander, here are some interesting observations I've made:
1) When d20 was first released, tons of modules were released, from lots of companies.
2) d20 modules, btw, take a LONG time to play by and large. Two or three combats can fill up a good 4 hour session.
3) After about 18 months or so, modules stopped selling, or slowed to a trickle at least.
4) Here we are in 2005, and people are clamoring for modules again!
Am I crazy, or did it just take a long time for people to actually play all the modules they bought back when d20 got started? I mean, I talk to people who have been playing Rappan Athuk, Banewarrens, or RtToEE, for years!
(Not to mention WLD, you guys must all have 28 Constitutions!)If you're looking for good, short, generic, adventures, Dungeon Crawl Classics from Goodman Games are probably what you're looking for, and Necromancer is having some similar deals distributed by Kenzer coming up very shortly that look like they'll be fun too.
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