Adventures don't Sell? Do you agree? Redman Article

Mucknuggle said:
Orcus, are you familiar with the world of Dragonlance? I'm going to be receiving my DL 3.5 books soon (after finally deciding to email Amazon.ca about their wack shipping date) and I wanted to know if there are some generic adventures that I could easily slip into a campaign. I normally don't like DMing, but that's because I HATE designing adventures. Sometimes I get really cool adventure ideas, but mostly it just doesn't turn out well.

Your free support kicks butt. Much better than the "web enhancements" from WotC!

Mucknuggle,
We have at least one DragonLance/Necrogames fan on the board that has converted and run Necro modules in his DragonLance setting.

I know that Eryx has run "Hall of the Rainbow Mage" and I am pretty sure that he has also run "What Evil Lurks." I believe he has used bits and pieces of others as well.

I am afraid that I mostly use "homebrew." If I were to ask someone how to convert something to run in Dragonlance, Eryx is the person I'd ask. You can find him on the Necromancer Games forums, and possibly somewhere here.

Patrick
 

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BelenUmeria said:
EnWorlders!

What would you think about forming a group of freelancers to produce adventure material for d20 publishers? I am talking about getting together to produce adventures that people will love and providing them to companies that we love.

We would be there to critique the work or our comrades. We would be there to provide editing for new modules. We would be there with adventures for the big guns who do not want to write them but may want to produce them.

What you you think? Workable?

Contact me: dave_ncsu_alumni@yahoo.com

Let's rock, gentleman!

Dave

Okay, I have a strange bias here, I already write adventures for Necromancer Games, so keep that in mind when you read my reply.

I don't think this is workable. Companies want clear authorship of a work that they are interested in publishing. You get a group of 20 people "writing" something in a forum, trading ideas, stat blocks, etc. then who is the "author."

Critiques? Yeah, that would work, but ... I think that the published authors, or people under contract are simply going to get the critiques from their editor/developer and work with those. People have sent me material in the past for critical review. Despite using what I believe are kindly worded comments, people have ended up very insulted. If you are going to write adventures, source material, whatever, you need to set your ego to the side and accept critical comments, lots of people are unable to do that.

In other words, experienced writers are generally going to be working with editors/developers leaving people joining the group that are less experienced and potentially less "adjusted" to receiving critical comments. This leads to potential flame wars, arguments, and eventually the disintigration of the group.

Another potential problem is Non-Disclosure Agreements. Is everyone going to be on an NDA? What if someone "steals" an idea, etc.? This is essentially impossible to prove, I always presume that if I have a "great" idea, someone else has thought of it too, it is just whether or not they have written it up, etc. Most people don't, they presume that if they talked about an idea with someone, and the idea turns up elsewhere, that something nasty happened.

Sorry, hate to be the nay-sayer, but I don't think this is workable in the long-term.

Patrick
 

Orcus is soooo right! I've been waiting for this subject ever since the advent of 3rd edition. I think this was one of the reasons for the failure of TSR during the 2nd edition days.

All we got for a long time was sourcebook after sourcebook after sourcebook. Boxed settings, hardbacks, etc. All describing some new setting, or dedicated almost entirely to crunch. Where were all the adventures? I don't care about Giantish history in the Realms, I don't care about the geography of this kingdom or that kingdom, I want ADVENTURES.

I think that's why the original Dragonlance modules were so successful. They gave us lots and lots of adventure, with a great storyline, and included little bits here and there on the history and culture of Krynn. Once the line devolved into sourcebooks and boxed sets it pooped out.

Generic modules will always work the best, but like Clark said, the little mini-campaigns work great too. You don't feel like you're stomping through someone else's personal campaign...
 

For the love of adventures!

This is a good, meaty thread!

I can come at this topic from two angles, I suppose: one, my experience with Fiery Dragon; two, my current role as developer of the Warcraft RPG. I'll tackle the second angle initially, as that won't take as long.

From what I gather regarding the originally planning for the Warcraft line, an adventure was not considered most likely because it would not succeed well enough in the current market. This impression bears some truth, I believe, even though I think a published adventure of the mini-campaign sort would just rock. Economics, then, truly do figure in to why adventures get made or not, despite the great service they can provide as campaign support tools -- i.e., get the Warcraft RPG core book plus maybe the upcoming Manual of Monsters ... and there's this adventure waiting for you to pick up as well and get going with a campaign! Suhweeeeeeet .... :)

Coming at the issue now from the FDP angle, I think both Rich Redman and Clark Peterson offer insightful analysis and critique that pretty much covers what we know at FDP. Quite frankly, adventures do not sell as well as other types of products. We LOVE doing them just as much as the Necromancer folks, and we pretty much established our name and place in the d20 landscape with our adventures (NeMoren's Vault, The Silver Summoning, To Stand on Hallowed Ground, Of Sound Mind ... Plague of Dreams). Still, our counters represent our bread and butter right now, while the costs of printing adventures become more and more prohibitive.

People do expect a lot from adventures, and rightly they should. FDP adventures have, I think, always done well to play the line between "generic" and "campaign specific," primarily because we (mostly James Bell and Todd Secord) wrote with the classic D&D setting in mind -- you know, the vaguely medieval Britain setting. If you read an FDP adventure closely, you'll catch all sorts of campaign and setting hooks, though the focus remains firmly on the story. Today, though, adventures do sort of need to "go big" in terms of page count and content ... hence the delay in us getting out Gates of Oblivion.

Clark's point about needing to offer something that Dungeon cannot does hit upon perhaps the key concern facing published adventures. Essentially, a published adventure must provide DMs something they can't get from Dungeon or, in many respects, from their own efforts. In your 64 or 96 or 112 pages, you face the task of convincing the DM that she could use your work for any of several reasons, but mostly whether or not she can fit it relatively easily into her current campaign. Moreover, you need to convince her (or one of her players) that your adventure makes for a better purchase than one of the gazillion splatbooks and setting books right there competing for shelf space and consumers' d20 dollars.

Those splatbooks, in fact, play a somewhat significant role in d20 adventure writing, at least from my perspective. In the beginning of 3e, most folks had only the core rulebooks, so adventures could focus on that material quite comfortably. Now, we have numerous splatbooks that offer different game mechanics options for every single class and every single race, stretching the core rules far beyond a containable sphere for an adventure to handle. On the one hand, such is the beauty of open content: a lot of creative material is available, and publishers can use each others' work. On the other hand, an adventure simply cannot account for PCs built using whatever set of class and/or race rules (not to mention new feats, spells, magic items, and equipment) from however many other publishers. Even if an adventure uses one publisher's OGC, a DM's group may be using totally different d20 rules. So, the landscape of rules options simply spreads too far for adventures to meet the needs of the most DMs possible.

This is why I like that Clark makes the difference between "adventure writing" and "game design." Sure, you want your product to give DMs and players some new "crunch," be it monsters, spells, items, feats, prestige classes, and so forth. Ultimately, though, you must have story. When you put all the rules away, the story remains as the core of an adventure -- a hallmark, I believe, of FDP adventures from the start. DMs can always use good stories. ;)

Finally, consumers today also look at products with a much more discerning eye toward and with higher standards for physical quality: good layout, good maps, good editing, good art, a good cover. Adventures require these elements just as much as splatbooks or setting books ... though, in the end, the return on investment for ensuring all those good things just does not equal that of settings or rules expansions (unless you do mostly everything else in-house). So, no, you can't churn out adventures simply to make some quick cash. You better treat the product with as much care as your cherished campaign setting tome.

Heh, well, that rambled on a bit. :D Suffice to say, Rich Redman makes some salient points that should be discussed, as we are doing here, and Clark offers some very valuable insight on how adventures can be successful products. The real answer likely lies somewhere in between ....


Take care,
Mike
 

Drkfathr1 said:
Generic modules will always work the best, but like Clark said, the little mini-campaigns work great too. You don't feel like you're stomping through someone else's personal campaign...

I like that description, I like it alot...:)
 

I am actually proposing a company that would write adventure material for other companies, so I think authorship would be fine, but I could just be gung-ho about seeing more adventures produced.

I have worked for a d20 company before, so I am faily certain of the "drill." I also work as a publisher now with a large portion of my work managing authors, so we shall see.
 

BU - I'm not arguing that -- if 20k is phenomenal sales for NG, then surely it would be good for anyone else as well. But the point I'm trying to make is, how much saturation does the adventure market have right now? How much room is there for more adventures?

If you want to continue your efforts, which I applaud, because I think you fill someone's needs at least (although not mine) I think you're better off PDFing adventures, however. Maybe see if you can talk Morrus into hosting them here. That'd be a lot more useful.
 

Redman is right

After reading Rich Redman's article and the responses in this discussion group, I can only conclude that he is 100% correct.

You say adventure modules published today are no good? So you create your own. Well then, there is the vicious circle right there. But don't you suppose that not ALL of the modules published by the ump-teen mom-and-pop companies out there are bad? Who do you think is writing all of that stuff? This "them" vs. "us" mentality just irritates me to no end. "They" are people just like "you", and they are writing things that they find fasinating and enjoy. But there are far more "us" as consumers and players than actual published writers or even GMs. So, now we're left with "those modules are no good", ergo "I'm not buying any; I'll make my own, even if I have to piecemeal stuff together from Dungeon magazine."

And what's the result? No sales. No sales, no business. No business, no incentive for WotC/Hasbro to spend money, because return on investment is just not there.

So why all of the "boy, modules were so much better back in the day. The A, D, G, XYZ series were SO good when men-were-men and giants walked the earth".

Do we sound like a bunch of old-timers here or what? Were they really that good? Come on! Keep on the Borderlands was a nice little adventure to intro players to D&D but as an adventure module, it sucked. And Tomb of Horrors, although a classic dungeon crawl and challenging, was basically a linear dungeon with no real story in it at all. "Hey dummies, bore through the outside and bypass that one-way tunnel!"

We thought they were great back then, and we needed them, because D&D and role-playing were still so new. "What! No board, no playing pieces? I was robbed! This box only has some rules in it!" Once the game and role-playing evolved over time, we found we understood where this combination of story-telling and game-playing could take us. Tools for the imagination. After 30 years, we've finally caught on to how to make a game story/module ourselves. It took years of practice, but we finally figured it out. Most of us have years of experience as GMs, not only in D&D, either. Back 20-25 years ago, we didn't have that experience to draw from to create adventures like we do today or to really know what good vs. bad module was.

So really, we don't need modules that someone else has written. Most of them won't fit our individual tastes and sensibilities. I'm happy enough with just piece-mealing something together from various sources, and maybe I will use a premade module sometime - that I like. But I don't expect most modules that come out will be something that fits my world or be something that floats my boat.

-Collin
 

One thing many people are overlooking is opportunity costs for developers.

I think that Orcus is right that many of the problems with the module market are caused by the lack of quality (or at least strategic thinking) involved in D20 modules. I like some of the Necromancer modules and the SL modules - though they are SL specific. They offer something a little different.

Four problems have been overlooked in much of the (warranted) praise for Orcus' reply.

1] I think it was someone with a "whiskers" name (*whickers*) that pointed out that people play DnD differently now than in 1E. People focus a lot more on role-playing and campaign development. Not all, of course, but many people do. These people are less interested in Rappan Athuk (sp?) style dungeon crawls. The result is that dungeon crawls commit the great sin Monte Cook feared - market segmentation. I like some dungeon crawls (proud owner of RA1-3) but many gamers simply don't like them.

People can and have written modules that are compatible with more role-playing but they are longer, more expensive, and (I suspect) tougher to develop.

This simply means that modules are less likely to appeal to the d20 customers than the 1E customers.

2] Companies have to consider the opportunity costs as well as the profit for a book. Sure they could invest in a module and get some return. They could even get a good return if they are lucky and skilled. However, they may be likely to make more money (with more security) if they invest the resources in a source book instead.

We have to think in relative terms (would a company give up the resources they could devote to the next collection of PrCs ;) to publish a module). I think a lot of companies have concluded that the opportunity costs of modules are too high even if they can be profitable.

3] I eagerly awaited 1E modules because THEY WERE THE ONLY THINGS COMING OUT. There were no new books. They were the only option. Comparing the anticipation of 1E modules to d20 modules is problematic.

4] While it is hypoerbole to suggest that no modules come out for non-d20 game, it is true that very few modules come out for non-d20 games. Having talked to some of the WW people, they are convinced that they can not sell many WoD modules. They go *book or source book instead because that is all they can afford (again, opportunity costs play a role).

This is not a d20 problem (or some evil WotC conspiracy). This is a problem with the RPG market.

Who thinks we should have "collectible randomized" modules. I can just see it. You buy a map with numbers and then a packet that includes a randomly printed set of encounters keyed to those numbers. The rare ones have "kewl" bad guys.

Seriusly though. I blame society - but I can't blame the publishers.
 
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Josh and Enworld- I do intend to see what others think about such a company. I certainly do not have the xp to put together PDFs for publication, although I do have degrees in editing, publishing and creative writing. My main strength has always been in managing disparite groups of people and I would love to give authors the opportunity to write and maybe the chance to sell their work.

I do think it a workable concept. For instance, Mongoose or AEG may not have the time to write adventure material that features some of their work, but maybe they would be interested in have someone else write that for them. Heck, as a GM, adventures are a great way to show how to use some material effectively!

At the very least, those involved would have material for their campaigns and gather valuable writing experience.

Dave
 

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