Pathfinder 2E Advice for a 5E DM moving to PF2E

[JmanTheDM]

nowhere, everywhere... . this is going to meander a bit.. so stay with me
we all know that initiative is rolled at the start of an encounter. "surprise" is in delaying the start of an encounter until conditions are most favourable to your side.

Initiative is also now determined by different skills based on what you are doing - eg. if you are sneaking, you would roll stealth instead of Perception. this implies that the actions you were up to prior to entering hostilities in many ways dictates how you will respond (and how fast you will react), once initiative is called.

the GM also has the ability to apply bonuses to Initiative based on the actions the PC's or Monsters are doing just before Initiative has been called.

per the CRB pg 468. "Rolling Initiative marks the start of an encounter. More often than not, you’ll roll initiative when you enter a battle."

so you DON'T want to enter battle until you want to enter battle. Surprise here is determining (when possible) when to start a fight. in the GM section, calling initiative is the transition from Exploration mode into encounter mode.

but the key KEY element is on pg 498 Rolling Initiative: "Call for initiative once a trap is triggered, as soon as two opposing groups come
into contact, or when a creature on one side decides to take action against the other."

holy crap, long winded way to get to my point
worth noting, save for one little side-bar on pg 499, there is no use of the word surprise anywhere for combat.

so, here's how my group has interpreted all of the above. Combat starts "as soon as 2 opposing groups..." or "when a creature on one side decides to take action..." the key here is to either not be perceived as an opposing group or to not force a decision to take an action until its on your terms. how is this done? entirely through your actions in Exploration mode prior to the start of combat.

Example 1: kick down the door, rush in. monsters automatically perceive you as an opposing group, initiative is rolled as soon as the door fly's open. you are at a (possible) positional disadvantage because you are at the door and will need to move a certain distance to get within striking range of your opposition. this costs you actions that could be otherwise allocated for other purposes.

Example 2: same door, you hear the monsters, some of the party sneak, and some are going to try and bluff their way into the room. door opens, monsters sense motive and seek - and discover something is amiss. at this point, same as example 1, you instantly transition into combat by calling initiative and PC's are at positional disadvantage.

Example 3. same as 2, but PC's pass all their exploration actions. monsters are completely oblivious. the sneaky sneaks are sneaking, and the deception of the pizza delivery is working. the PC's move into the room, they slide into position. Pizza Delivery folks get themselves into Flank position ahead of time, or close to the rooms BBG - whatever. Monsters are, like, "sure whatever, we love pizza!" and depending on what the PC's are doing, there may be other sense motive or seek what's going on. maybe not. until the PC's are ready. the PC's "spring the trap".

now, initiative is rolled exactly the same. Order is figured out exactly the same. 3-actions are exactly the same way, with the following differences. nobody gets a "surprise round". this doesn't exist

• if you were sneaking in exploration - you will likely roll stealth
• if you were pretending to be the pizza delivery dude - you might roll deception
• if you are hiding around the corner, waiting out of site for the "go" - you may roll Perception
• monsters, likely will roll perception
• GM, may decide that the pizza dudes get a +1 or +2 on their initiative because of role-play reasons. (optional)

now, you'll notice the flaw (if you think in a 5e mindset). rolling initiative as per normal, you or your side has no "guarantee" of going first. this is 100% correct. You better be using those stealth and deception skills that you are really good at to try and get into position (otherwise, you will likely have been caught earlier), but this is the vagaries of life and combat. there is no guarantee that the ambushing side will universally act faster. there is nothing to suggest that a monster may notice that slight twitch in your eye and they react quicker. the only thing you can hopefully do is decide when the fight will start, using the skills/abilities you have to give you the most advantage to try and go first - but once it starts, its all up to luck.

some may say this is not "Surprise" in the traditional sense. I 100% agree, but what I LOVE about this is the positional aspect of the lead-up to combat. if you can start a fight when you are flanking a foe, just due to the action economy, you have given yourself in the 1st round a huge advantage...

Anyway, that's how my table has interpreted things, and I honestly love it.
(now I'll grab some popcorn and wait to hear how stupid we are )

cheers,

J.

couple quick notes:

• traditional "surprise" is described as 2 groups rounding a corner at the same time. Surprise! if lucky, your group can go first. this doesn't happen here. initiative, in a narrative sense, in this case determines which PC or Monster recovers from the surprise fastest and reacts first.
• note 2. I think of PF2 surprise as an ambush. nobody wants to setup an ambush and have the enemies spot it 100 yards away, they want the trap sprung in the kill zone. the advantage of an ambush is springing the trap in the kill zone, not individual reaction speed.

 

[kenada]

nowhere, everywhere... . this is going to meander a bit.. so stay with me
we all know that initiative is rolled at the start of an encounter. "surprise" is in delaying the start of an encounter until conditions are most favourable to your side.

Initiative is also now determined by different skills based on what you are doing - eg. if you are sneaking, you would roll stealth instead of Perception. this implies that the actions you were up to prior to entering hostilities in many ways dictates how you will respond (and how fast you will react), once initiative is called.

the GM also has the ability to apply bonuses to Initiative based on the actions the PC's or Monsters are doing just before Initiative has been called.

per the CRB pg 468. "Rolling Initiative marks the start of an encounter. More often than not, you’ll roll initiative when you enter a battle."

so you DON'T want to enter battle until you want to enter battle. Surprise here is determining (when possible) when to start a fight. in the GM section, calling initiative is the transition from Exploration mode into encounter mode.

but the key KEY element is on pg 498 Rolling Initiative: "Call for initiative once a trap is triggered, as soon as two opposing groups come
into contact, or when a creature on one side decides to take action against the other."

holy crap, long winded way to get to my point
worth noting, save for one little side-bar on pg 499, there is no use of the word surprise anywhere for combat.

so, here's how my group has interpreted all of the above. Combat starts "as soon as 2 opposing groups..." or "when a creature on one side decides to take action..." the key here is to either not be perceived as an opposing group or to not force a decision to take an action until its on your terms. how is this done? entirely through your actions in Exploration mode prior to the start of combat.

Example 1: kick down the door, rush in. monsters automatically perceive you as an opposing group, initiative is rolled as soon as the door fly's open. you are at a (possible) positional disadvantage because you are at the door and will need to move a certain distance to get within striking range of your opposition. this costs you actions that could be otherwise allocated for other purposes.

Example 2: same door, you hear the monsters, some of the party sneak, and some are going to try and bluff their way into the room. door opens, monsters sense motive and seek - and discover something is amiss. at this point, same as example 1, you instantly transition into combat by calling initiative and PC's are at positional disadvantage.

Example 3. same as 2, but PC's pass all their exploration actions. monsters are completely oblivious. the sneaky sneaks are sneaking, and the deception of the pizza delivery is working. the PC's move into the room, they slide into position. Pizza Delivery folks get themselves into Flank position ahead of time, or close to the rooms BBG - whatever. Monsters are, like, "sure whatever, we love pizza!" and depending on what the PC's are doing, there may be other sense motive or seek what's going on. maybe not. until the PC's are ready. the PC's "spring the trap".

now, initiative is rolled exactly the same. Order is figured out exactly the same. 3-actions are exactly the same way, with the following differences. nobody gets a "surprise round". this doesn't exist

• if you were sneaking in exploration - you will likely roll stealth
• if you were pretending to be the pizza delivery dude - you might roll deception
• if you are hiding around the corner, waiting out of site for the "go" - you may roll Perception
• monsters, likely will roll perception
• GM, may decide that the pizza dudes get a +1 or +2 on their initiative because of role-play reasons. (optional)

now, you'll notice the flaw (if you think in a 5e mindset). rolling initiative as per normal, you or your side has no "guarantee" of going first. this is 100% correct. You better be using those stealth and deception skills that you are really good at to try and get into position (otherwise, you will likely have been caught earlier), but this is the vagaries of life and combat. there is no guarantee that the ambushing side will universally act faster. there is nothing to suggest that a monster may notice that slight twitch in your eye and they react quicker. the only thing you can hopefully do is decide when the fight will start, using the skills/abilities you have to give you the most advantage to try and go first - but once it starts, its all up to luck.

some may say this is not "Surprise" in the traditional sense. I 100% agree, but what I LOVE about this is the positional aspect of the lead-up to combat. if you can start a fight when you are flanking a foe, just due to the action economy, you have given yourself in the 1st round a huge advantage...

Anyway, that's how my table has interpreted things, and I honestly love it.
(now I'll grab some popcorn and wait to hear how stupid we are )

cheers,

J.

couple quick notes:

• traditional "surprise" is described as 2 groups rounding a corner at the same time. Surprise! if lucky, your group can go first. this doesn't happen here. initiative, in a narrative sense, in this case determines which PC or Monster recovers from the surprise fastest and reacts first.
• note 2. I think of PF2 surprise as an ambush. nobody wants to setup an ambush and have the enemies spot it 100 yards away, they want the trap sprung in the kill zone. the advantage of an ambush is springing the trap in the kill zone, not individual reaction speed.

That approach to surprise is similar to the encounter procedure in basic D&D. Neat.

 

[JmanTheDM]

I obviously have a lot to say about this . Couple of points that my table needed to work through.
"but what if I roll a 1 on my initiative, and I was the one who triggered the start of the fight"

• answer 1: tough beans. such is the vagaries of war.
• answer 2: spend a hero point and re-roll. nowhere does it say Initiative cannot have hero points applied to it (as far as I am aware)
• answer 3: next time, don't try bluffing as the pizza delivery dude, when deception is a middling skill mr. all tracking Ranger?

"but it doesn't make logical sense. I'm the one that springs the trap by charging, why is the cleric who's hiding behind the wall in the other room get to go before me?"

• answer 1: tough beans. such is the vagaries of war
• better answer 2: everything is happening at the same time. as soon as you shouted your battlecry to start the attack, the cleric who was on the balls of his feet ready to spring into action simply reacted in that very instant when he heard your first syllable of your shout.

"why do the monsters get to go before us, they were totally fooled?"

• answer 1: were they? narratively, the fast acting monsters may have had "suspicions" that allowed them to keep their guard up while still not triggering a move into combat
• answer 2: tough beans. some monsters simply react faster than you do, some of the time.
• answer 3: but look at all the actions they need to spend (Assuming thinking monsters) to get out of this disadvantageous position. likely needing to spend an action to step out of flank and Opportunity attack. maybe spend another action to move to a tactically superior position. you are looking at between 33-66% of this first responder's turn "burned up" in trying to mitigate the disastrous starting position as a result of this ambush.

its a phenomenal advantage in pf2 if you can "cost" your opponent actions by forcing them to react while "saving" yourself actions by not needing to move into position simply by starting combat where you optimally want to start things.

Cheers,

J.

 

[Zardnaar]

Treat it as a new game is a big one.

 

[dave2008]

Make sure everyone has their key stat maxed, its possible on any build and the game naturally spreads your stats out so there's no reason not to.

Is this true? If so, it makes me a bit sad. I hate the idea that you have to have a maxed stat.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Is this true? If so, it makes me a bit sad. I hate the idea that you have to have a maxed stat.

its true unless you don't use attack rolls or saving throws at all, but the game naturally spreads your stats out anyway, so you aren't really losing anything by doing it, and any ancestry can get a maxed stat as well, so its not restrictive either. Its a product of the math being tight, if +1 matters, then conversely -1 matters too.

That being said I've seen people claim a starting 16 is fine, and you'll have the same modifier as someone who maxed it for half of the game's levels (since your modifier only increases on odd numbers) I would personally suggest a starting 18 is a better experience for new players though.

My group's opinion is that anything below an 18 is terrible for a primary stat, and will feel super bad, so I'd go with what they say, given that they seem to do better than most of the people I read about, and with harder encounters.

 

[dave2008]

its true unless you don't use attack rolls or saving throws at all, but the game naturally spreads your stats out anyway, so you aren't really losing anything by doing it, and any ancestry can get a maxed stat as well, so its not restrictive either. Its a product of the math being tight, if +1 matters, then conversely -1 matters too.

That being said I've seen people claim a starting 16 is fine, and you'll have the same modifier as someone who maxed it for half of the game's levels (since your modifier only increases on odd numbers) I would personally suggest a starting 18 is a better experience for new players though.

My group's opinion is that anything below an 18 is terrible for a primary stat, and will feel super bad, so I'd go with what they say, given that they seem to do better than most of the people I read about, and with harder encounters.

Thank you for the reply. That is disappointing. I wonder if there is anything that can be done to break out of that straight jacket.

 

[Campbell]

In general assuming the default ability boost generation method when you opt out of an 18 it's going to be because you are prioritizing your third or fourth best ability score. If something is not your key ability you cannot get above a 16 anyway.

Some sample arrays (assumes a human character)

18 / 16 / 12 / 12 / 10 / 10
18 / 14 / 14 / 12 / 10 / 10
16 / 16 / 14/ 12/ 10 / 10
16 / 14 / 14/ 14/ 10 / 10

At the end of the day I really do not think a 16 is gimping you. Your gameplay choices are going to have a lot more effect on how successful you are, but there's just not like a lot of reason not to prioritize your main strength because there are plenty of options to still be good at other stuff while having that 18.

Here's the same arrays at Level 5 assuming we prioritize the 4 top stats


19 / 18 / 14 / 14 / 10 / 10
19 / 16 / 16 / 14 / 10 / 10
18 / 18 / 16/ 14/ 10 / 10
18 / 16 / 16/ 16/ 10 / 10

Far and away you generally one of the biggest factors in not encouraging you to dump your key ability score for tertiary stuff is that Constitution's impact on hit points is far less than other versions of the game and when it comes to Dexterity's impact on AC you want sufficient Dexterity, but more does not help. Generally you want to be good at something because you want to be good at what it does. Not to avoid dying.

 

[CapnZapp]

THIS. I would even go a step further. Make sure the characters choose characters that will work together as a party. In 5e, a literal group of misfits can probably be pretty successful, PF2, not so much.

In PF2, a party absolutely needs a tank, someone with in-combat healing, and someone who invested heavily in the Medecine skill tree (preferably more than one person).

Well, one single character can't really "tank". What you need is several heroes able and willing to step in and cover each other.

At low level, the offensive power of spells is significantly lower than you would be used to coming from pretty much any other edition of D&D, so my recommendation for a party composition that makes things as easy as possible would be three weapon users and one cleric. That is, instead of the "classic" party of four: fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard; you switch out the wizard for a ranger, barbarian, paladin or even bard, druid or (of course) second fighter.

 

[CapnZapp]

[*]don’t be afraid to have intelligent monsters retreat and to have animals act like animals (sharks will retreat after realizing people aren’t seals, something defending its lair can be avoided by simply backing off and going around, even a starving wolf isn’t going to attack four people, etc.) Likewise mindless monsters won’t use sophisticated tactics and will walk right into situations that will go poorly for them without a thought.
[*]monsters should usually be engaged in some activity rather than sitting in a room could completely silent, fully armed and armored, waiting for the characters to arrive. Exceptions are if they are alerted and staging an ambush or they are mindless undead or constructs. If possible increase verisimilitude by having the players discover the activities (there is a poker table with cards on it in the hobgoblin guard room, you hear the yells of mites trying to train their vermin, the antipaladin is in her pajamas and her hair is a mess, etc.)

What all of this means is only "monsters are deadly in PF2" and (low level) combat can be incredibly dangerous.

You actually aren't obligated to do any of the above (more than in any other edition of D&D), it's just a way for the GM to voluntarily lower the difficulty level. God knows PF2 heroes (again, at low level) need it.

But it should be remembered that there's no "should" here, as if the GM were to blame otherwise.

PF2 can be unforgivingly hard - but that is entirely on Paizo, since they did not tell GMs of any of this in their GM advice. GMs aren't obliged to go soft on their players to save Paizo's reputation here.