Pathfinder 2E How is PF2e at higher levels?

[Velderan]

I did some research after multiple people here suggested I start with Menace Under Otari and then follow-up with a combination of Troubles in Otari with Abomination Vaults available in the background to explore and completely agree that all sounds great for my 5e table converting to PF2e. While discussing the campaign plan with my group, I mentioned the AV AP is supposed to get you to 11 so maybe adding in the other 2 bits of material will be good to get them to 12. One of the players asked how well does PF2e work past those levels, since that's typically where most 5e campaigns die out. I've heard PF2e does a better job, but could anyone point to any good published examples if we were interested in running something to 20? Preferably something with a Foundry premade option available.

Basically since I'm still learning to GM the system, I'd like to run premade stuff for the first campaign to help me learn the mechanics.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I found it worked reasonably well from a player POV when we played through Age of Ashes. My only mild complaint (and this may have compounded because we were playing hybrids) was that there were a lot of things to keep track of because you've accumulated a lot of feats by that point. But again, we were playing hybrids so we probably had at least half again what normal characters do.

Other than that, you had a nice sense of being Big Damn Heroes even though its the usual escalator, just because of some of the things you can do, without it apparently breaking anything. As a GM you'd have to get used to it being relatively easy for people to be able to do things like fly and turn invisible, but that seems intrinsic to the scope of modern style D&D derivatives, and didn't seem, as I said, to break anything.

 

[!DWolf]

I've heard PF2e does a better job, but could anyone point to any good published examples if we were interested in running something to 20? Preferably something with a Foundry premade option available.

I don’t know about Foundry integration but:
Age of Ashes, Extinction Curse, Agents of Edgewatch, Strength of Thousands, and Blood Lords are all APs that run 1-20. The later two seem to be better regarded than the first two. Additionally, Night of the Gray Death is a standalone level 16 module.

Edit: and I completely forgot the best high level AP, Fist of the Ruby Phoenix! It goes from 11-20 and was just re-released in hardback.

 

[Yaarel]

I don’t know about Foundry integration but:
Age of Ashes, Extinction Curse, Agents of Edgewatch, Strength of Thousands, and Blood Lords are all APs that run 1-20. The later two seem to be better regarded than the first two. Additionally, Night of the Gray Death is a standalone level 16 module.

Edit: and I completely forgot the best high level AP, Fist of the Ruby Phoenix! It goes from 11-20 and was just re-released in hardback.

I will look into the Strength of Thousands.

 

[Ravingdork]

I've played as high as 13th-level and we've not had any problems with high level play along the way. PF2e's math appears to be buttery smooth from beginning to end.

 

[Staffan]

I've played as high as 13th-level and we've not had any problems with high level play along the way. PF2e's math appears to be buttery smooth from beginning to end.

There are some levels where characters get notable power boosts, like level 5 where martials get increased weapon proficiency and casters get 3rd level spells, or 7 where casters get proficiency boosts. The levels immediately before these levels tend to be rough, as you're a little below where a smooth power curve would be.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There are some levels where characters get notable power boosts, like level 5 where martials get increased weapon proficiency and casters get 3rd level spells, or 7 where casters get proficiency boosts. The levels immediately before these levels tend to be rough, as you're a little below where a smooth power curve would be.

As long as they're using the traditional spell leveling for D&D, its hard to see how that could be avoided there.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Characters are stronger by that point if they optimize, but are still threatened by powerful creatures, it's a huge rush of power though, especially if you let them fight things that they fought at a lower level-- when Ancient Dragons are coming into play, it's really fun to fight a bunch of adult dragons all at once when earlier in the campaign just one of them was a nasty business.

 

[Steel_Wind]

As long as they're using the traditional spell leveling for D&D, its hard to see how that could be avoided there.

They aren't; not exactly. Spells run to level 10 in PF2 -- they don't stop at 9th.

 

[Thomas Shey]

They aren't; not exactly. Spells run to level 10 in PF2 -- they don't stop at 9th.

They still come in half the levels that there are character levels, which is the source of the problem; that's inevitably going to produce uneven jumps.

 

[Staffan]

They still come in half the levels that there are character levels, which is the source of the problem; that's inevitably going to produce uneven jumps.

Jumping every other level is one thing, but some jumps are bigger than others. Getting 3rd level spells is one of those big jumps, as that's when you're getting useful AOEs and stuff (even if they do the same damage for the spell slot, there's a big difference between burning hands and fireball).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Jumping every other level is one thing, but some jumps are bigger than others. Getting 3rd level spells is one of those big jumps, as that's when you're getting useful AOEs and stuff (even if they do the same damage for the spell slot, there's a big difference between burning hands and fireball).

Even there, though, you'd have to change or eliminate a lot of spells that land at those levels. Level three spells has been a big jump in every incarnation of D&D and its offshoots that uses the traditional setup for example, and things like Fireball and Lightning Bolt aren't a minor part of it.

 

[GrahamWills]

I've played in multiple 1-20 campaigns, and PF2 is excellent at keeping the game feeling like you are getting more and powerful (because you are) without also making it more work on the players. There are more things you can do, but it's not the PITA to manage that even systems I love (like DND4E) are.

• I'd never ever want to play 3.5 or PF1 beyond 13 or so
• I'd only play 4E at high levels with a GM who was well above average
• I'd play 13th Age at high levels with a GM who was above average
• I'd play PF2 at high levels just as happily as at low levels

I've played a warrior priest and a dedicated investigator 1-20, and the party I was in had a mix of rogues, fighters, wizards and all the usual suspects. Your experience at level 20 will not be significantly different than at level 5 in terms of workload and nuisance.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Out of curiosity, Graham, what's your definition of "high level" with 13A? 8-10?

 

[GrahamWills]

Out of curiosity, Graham, what's your definition of "high level" with 13A? 8-10?

Yep, pretty much

 

[Thomas Shey]

I was curious, because I agreed with the rest of yours, but I only know 13th Age by reading/theoretically.

 

[Andvari]

My party is only level 4 so far, but I'm already working on the follow-up campaign, at which point I expect them to be level 8. Looking over the spells a little, I noticed Paizo have done a few things to address the issue of potential game-breakers.

For one, some spells are listed as Uncommon. These tend to be spells that mean a change in game style (raise dead can be denied to make a permadeath game) or to allow certain types of adventures (zone of truth can be denied for a murder mystery).

Secondly, some spells that might cause GMs headaches have been moved up a level. Fly for example is a 4th level spell instead of 3rd. (Higher level creatures are more likely to have options against flying opponents)

Some spells have been restricted in some other way of what they can do or how easily they can be pulled off. Plane Shift takes 10 minutes to cast, so you can't use it to immediately escape combat. And some spells for locking down creatures have the Incapacitation trait to protect high level opponents.

Lastly, some "usualy suspect " spells appear to have been outright removed. No magic jar, for example.