Advice needed on tactics

[two]

because...

Amal, it's rather rude to take my middle-of-the-road comments and extended them to ludicrous lengths as an argumentative ploy.

Go back an read my posts. I go to great lengths to describe exactly what I'm objecting to.

I never claimed Monks should be as good as fighters at, well, fighting. It would be nice, however, wouldn't it, if they could be as effective as clerics in melee, don't you think? (you know, clerics, that full caster progression class which also has a d8 and 3/4 BAB progression). Or, on occasion, as effective as rogues? Or somewhere in between? Not for example on the bottom of the heap, next to the melee bard?

The initial poster had a run-of-the-mill monk build. He expected his monk to be, not the equivalent of a fighter in combat, but not useless. He was wrong. His monk is a 10th level melee joke.

I've witnessed other people that, having seen movies or heard about Monkly cool abilities, attempt to play monks as melee combatants. They too, very often, are slapped down -- hard.

I'm not asking the monk to equal the fighter.

I'm not saying monks are usless to the party.

I am saying that non-specialized monks are often bad -- not sub-par, mind you, but bad -- melee combatants. A 10th level cleric in melee. Fine. A 10th level rogue. Ok. A 10th level ranger. Sure. All can do decent damage, vanilla, right out of the gate. No special feats or tweaks needed. A 10th level monk -- bad. Not sub-par, but bad. Bad AC, bad hitpoints, bad damage, bad "to hits" (because no + on their weapons, typically their hands). That's kinda lame in my view.

Your example, Amal, is hilariously perfect, in that it shows a monk doing exactly what a monk SHOULD do. i.e. everything and anything except actually do damage in combat. I ACCEPT THAT THIS IS A GREAT THING AND CAN BE HELLA FUN. spring attack, leap in, trip, maybe do a tiny bit of damage with improved trip, spring out, help to flank. Super! Excellent! Wonderful!

You have indeed shown how a monk can be useful! Invest in an expensive series of feats (spring attack) which further diminishes any chance of doing real damage, and help the party out with trips, flanks, and other things.

Good. Great. You proved your point.

Which I "conceded" long ago -- I never claimed a monk wasn't useful for a party. The Monk simply isn't gonna dish out much damage; never going to be able to take the hits (because you can't always spring away, after all, or sometimes you don't want to -- leaving the wizard unprotected); never going to make that critical hit that does 40 points of damage and finishes off the big baddie. Not "it's rather unlikely" but can't. Ain't gonna happen. it can happen to the Cleric. or the 10th level rogue. Or even a bow-using bard. But a vanilla monk? No.

In other words, "my hands are lethal weapons?" Nah, not really Mr. Monk. Better bone up on your tripping, grappling, sundering, and "aiding another" skills.


The trouble is, it's so durn hard to make an effective melee 3.5 monk with non-godlike stats. Melee is defined here as, well, doing damage to bad guys and absorbing hits or distracting the enemy. Not in a way that outshines a fighter. Or ranger, or Barbarian, or even a cleric. Just... does decently. A certain percentage of the time.

It's tough!

I agree you can "make monks fun and competitive". I've always claimed this to be true, but it's soooo tricky and, if your stats are low -- god lord. Very, very, very tricky. Most difficult PC to build effectively, bar none. That's a shame. There should be more room for non-optimized builds. More wiggle room.

I like monks. I really do. I just wish they were easier to build, and allowed a greater variety of game playing styles.

 

[silentspace]

Another great use is if your mage is a blaster, you can tumble into the middle of the enemy and keep them from attacking while your mage blasts the heck out of them (and you, but you have evasion/improved evasion). It works better if you have a reach weapon, like a spiked chain, which will give you aoos on anyone trying to get past you to the party. And of course you take the AoO as a trip attack, to stop it in its tracks.

 

[Saeviomagy]

5 monk/5 tattooed monk and take (in order) Chameleon (alter self into humanoid werebear for +7 NA and large size/reach)

BZZZT - you can't take templated forms with alter self, nor can you take werebear anyway, because he's got more than 5 hit dice.

since monks are more useful OUT of combat than in - ever have any traps, chasms to cross, etc.

1. Your monks are useless in combat because you give them bad strength
2. Monks can't get anyone except themselves across the trap/chasm. Other classes can help the entire party...

I play my monk as a target. "I" run in and hope everything attacks me. I usually have the highest AC and saves at the table and am very mobile, so getting the baddies to target me leaves our BDFs and casters open. Sure you're not in the spotlight, but the party will thank you in the long run.

Works for the first round, but after you fail to cause any damage, anyone sensible will just ignore you until the fight is over.

And also bear in mind - this is the best you can expect if you totally focus on defense. A character who's primary ability is to be a target, and not a very enticing one at that.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm dissin' Monks, and it's not because I require them to have 3 18's.

Your 25 point Point-Buy monk has AC 14 at first level. And 8 hit points.

I agree that the monk builds listed seriously undervalued constitution (no con bonus on either of them--that's a way to get killed). However, I disagree that monks are unable to compete because of low AC and hit points.

The key about a monk's AC is that it is very buffable. A friendly mage with a mage armor spell will boost the monk's AC to 18. At first level, that's quite good. Even at third and fourth level, it's decent.

At 2nd level, he's got an AC of... 14. And 12 hit points. At 3rd level, he's got an AC of 14. And 16 hit points. I'm sure you see where this is going. At 10th level, for example, assuming two "+4s" to Dex and Wisdom, the Monk has an AC of 20. It's a touch AC of 20 -- granted. But still, 20. Spend cash on other bonuses to AC if you like (deflection, nat. armor).

1st level pearl of power and lesser rod of extend spell: 4000gp.

AC 24.

Begging a Magic Circle vs. Evil off the cleric. (And another charge from the wand).

AC 26 vs. evil.

At that point the AC is quite respectable. A 10th level damage focussed fighter (+2 or +3 fullplate, +1 dex, magic circle vs. evil) will be in the same ballpark. A 10th level rogue in his mithral chain shirt will be in the same area too (dex +5, Armor +6 (+2 from magic vestment), Deflection +2 (circle vs. evil), +2 (+1 buckler)=AC 23, 25 vs. evil).

A monk's belt will boost it by another point. Haste (either the spell or boots of speed) boosts it by another point. A 5000gp rose prism ioun stone is another point of AC. The monk is actually quite well off in the AC department--better than your typical barbarian and on a par with a non-sword and board fighter.

You still lag far behind even a rogue with mirthral shirt.

Not by my count in the previous section.

And the monk has terrible hit points because of low constitution.

Only this monk. There's no rule that monks have to have poor con. And in general, it's a bad idea.

And fists that do 1d10+3 (or 4) damage at 10th level. As you said -- perfectly playable.

2d6+3 if the character has a monk's belt. 2d6+4 if the character spent his 4th and 8th level bumps on strength. 2d6+6 with Greater Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Fang, and 1d6+16 if the monk gets the cleric/druid to cast spikes on a quarterstaff and then wields it two-handed for a flurry of blows. (But Spikes is a broken spell and any class can make use of it (though not as well as a monk) so it probably doesn't belong in this comparison).

When combined with a flurry of blows, the monk's damage is actually pretty respectable.
Three attacks for 2d6+6 works out to an average of 39 points of damage if they all hit. A 22 strength fighter (assuming a +4 belt of strength, starting strength 16, and 2 stat bumps in strength) with a +1 flaming greatsword greater magic weaponed up to +2 and weapon specialization will do 2d6+11+1d6 twice--for 43 points of damage on two hits. The fighter has a slight edge on the monk and also has an attack bonus advantage, but one doesn't need to dish out damage as well as a fighter with a two-handed weapon in order to be a viable melee combatant.

As an aside, it's worth pointing out that the monk combines very well with support classes. Having more attacks than usual means that inspire courage, prayer, recitation, fires of purity, etc are more effective on a monk.

Yes. But I can also play a Str=5, Con=5 fighter. The question is: is it fun, and is it what the player expects from a monk? Your point buy isn't an effective melee combatant at all at 10th level, period.

The monk is a lot better than a strength 5, con 5 fighter. With the example point buy's con, he may be similar to a 10 con fighter...but, news flash, he's a 10 con monk as well. Build a higher con monk and he'll do better.

The 32 point buy is getting better, granted. By level 4, with a boost to Dex from level ups, the monk's AC is 16. Well, I take it back. That's really not that much better. And the 32 point monk STILL has a con=10.

You keep harping on the 10 con but that says nothing about the monk as a class--only about a poor choice in this particular build.

Simply put: neither of these point buy builds is gonna compete at all, from level 1 to level 20, as melee combatants. Their mediocre AC (at best), low-to-middling damage output, and terrible hit points insure this. Great saves, good movements, good touch ac. All very fine. But these builds are not viable melee builds, barring some insane min-max tweaking (grappler master, etc. other specialized build) via magic and feats.

First things first. Tweaking monk builds for things like grappling, stunning fist, and tripping (or all of the above) is not a specialized build. It's what a monk uses to make up for the fact that he doesn't dish out quite as much damage as the fighter. Ignoring things like Stunning Fist, Rapid Stunning, Pain Touch, Improved Grapple, etc in analyzing the monk class is like ignoring feats analyzing the fighter class (OK, so I didn't figure Power Attack into my damage output comparison--mea culpa. However, monks can have Power Attack too so it cuts both ways). Second, the monk's AC can be (as I showed) mediocre to good rather than mediocre at best and his damage output can be middling to high rather than low-middling.

As many people have pointed out, however, Monk work OK as team-helpers. Helping the rogue flank. Helping the fighter hit harder via. power attack (aid other). Helping to kill the enemy wizard. Scouting, etc. Monks can be fine team-helpers. They also are very hard to hurt via magic.

Anyone who makes this the selling point of the monk class is selling a bill of goods. A commoner can do half the things you mention there: provide a flank, aid other, etc. If that's all a monk can do, monks suck. They're not hard to hurt with magic but I wouldn't want to play a commoner even if they were hard to hurt with magic. Fortunately, as I discussed previously, monks are more than moving flank bonusses.

The trouble is, for a lot of people who play monks, their first impulse isn't "how can I tumble into position to interfere with the wizard and / or facilitate my rogue friend doing 25 points of damage in one strike?" It's more like "I'm gonna tumble through X jump off the wall Y and start spanking the Orge's hiney". After which GM: "Ok make your tumble check" Player "I succeed" GM "Ok do your attack against the ogre" Player "I hit! I do 6 points of damage!" GM "Ok. Next round the Ogre full attacks the monk -- hitting 3 times -- doing 51 points of damage" Player: "oops"

I've seen that happen too. However, that's a poorly built monk if he does six points of damage and gets hit on all of the ogre's iterative attacks. Monks don't have to be that way; they just often are that way.

I'm not dissing Monks as effective party members -- if they know their role and niche and work that angle. I'm dissing them as effective ranged or melee combatants -- as always, barring specialized high-strength low-AC builds.

I honestly wish Monks could do more of that crazy off-the-wall (literally) flying leaps upside down strikes etc. etc. There are some feats that help, but feats only go so far.

<Snip>

(let's see, using my monk AC system, a 32 point buy can get you:
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 8. That's a little better as melee goes)

With a little modification, it's not bad for a standard monk class either. Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8 is a pretty good monk. (Stat bumps to wisdom for a stunning focussed monk; to str for a grappling and melee damage focussed monk (in which case you can get a 12 int instead of the 15 wis).

However, back to the main topic--what can you do with your monk?

1. Get help from party members. Get yourself a pearl of power and a lesser rod of extend spell and get mage armor (or greater mage armor) from the group's mage.

2. Get a cleric/druid to cast spikes on a quarterstaff.

3. Flurry for all you're worth.

 

[ajanders]

Erp...

I've been following this thread with interest and some trepidation: I'm about to play my first monk ever...in an Eberron campaign.
I see the monk as a generalist class: you can build it for melee combat or for scouting.
You cannot get it to do both well any more than you can make a bard scout and fight and cast spells well.
If you've built your monk as a ninja-type scout monk, don't expect them to do melee combat any better than a rogue.
And if you've built your rogue as a melee fighter...well, don't expect them to be very stealthy or scouty.
Monks will never be as good in melee as the specialized melee class -- the fighter. That's why they usually get built as scouts -- which is what I'm doing with mine. (Though I've got Power Attack tucked away for emergencies.)
I hope it was a good idea: I neglected to get Monastic training, so I'm a straight monk or PrC for the next 10 levels and change.
The build is posted below: any advice is recieved, but I'm pretty happy with this build and the narrative possiblities it supports. Yes, I recognize disguise was not an optimal skill choice.

Kirik Haarn, Human, Mnk4;
"CR 4; Medium Humanoid; 5'/5';
HD 4d8+8; hp 34;
Init +7; Spd 40 ft/x5;
AC 15;
Atk +7 One-handed (1d8+2,20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +5/+5 Flurry of Blows (1d8+2/20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +6 One-handed (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken), +4/+4 Flurry of Blows (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken);
SV Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +6; AL LN;
Str 14(+2), Dex 16(+3), Con 14(+2), Int 14(+2), Wis 15(+2), Cha 13(+1);
Skills & Feats: Climb¹ +9, Disguise¹ +5, Hide¹ +12, Jump¹ +15, Listen¹ +5, Move Silently¹ +10, Spot¹ +5, Tumble +12.
Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Run, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)"

 

[Amal Shukup]

I've been following this thread with interest and some trepidation: I'm about to play my first monk ever...in an Eberron campaign.

Excellent. Hope you enjoy it.

Yes, I recognize disguise was not an optimal skill choice.

I've got no problems with it. Eberron emphasizes interactions with NPCs - particularly if you're playing in Sharn - and Monks can do very well in that context. If you're planning to go that route a lot, getting 5 Ranks into Bluff pays HUGE synergy dividends. A sneaky way to make that route effective is get your DM to let you take a level in Rogue at 1st level (your misspent youth before taking up your calling as a Monk, say). Sneak Attacking in a flurry goes a long way too...

Atk +7 One-handed (1d8+2,20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +5/+5 Flurry of Blows (1d8+2/20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +6 One-handed (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken), +4/+4 Flurry of Blows (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken)

I'm not a huge fan of Shuriken (prefer Slings) YMMV though. With a decent STR and Power Attack, a Quarterstaff is your toy of choice when limited to single Attack Actions (an awful lot of the time at lower levels) 1.5 STR bonus to damage PLUS you get the 2 for 1 Power Attack damage bonus... (even better with a slightly higher STR)

Str 14(+2), Dex 16(+3), Con 14(+2), Int 14(+2), Wis 15(+2), Cha 13(+1)

I'd swap Dex and STR, I think. If point buying, might reduce INT a bit and see what that gets you. Not sure though - Skills are nice.

Skills & Feats: Climb¹ +9, Disguise¹ +5, Hide¹ +12, Jump¹ +15, Listen¹ +5, Move Silently¹ +10, Spot¹ +5, Tumble +12.

Hide and Move Silently are opposed Checks - which means that MOST of the time you don't need 'em that high to be effective. DC 15 is what you need most of the time Tumbling, so you might pull some out of there too. Humans can't see in the dark anyway, so I typically boost Listen more than Spot (more generally useful). Diplomacy and Sense Motive are an excellent plave to put points if interacting with NPCs a lot.

Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Run, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)"

I think Weapon Finesse is a waste of a Feat - even if you don't swap the STR. Dodge starts you down a nice path, and Blind Fight is useful for a Human scout type. Also what Monk Bonus Feats are you going with?

Good luck!

A'Mal

 

[Saeviomagy]

If you've built your monk as a ninja-type scout monk, don't expect them to do melee combat any better than a rogue.

This is wrong - you should expect them to do far, far worse than a rogue, because stealth doesn't actually help a monk much in combat. A rogue can be quite bad where it matters and still pull off decent combat results thanks to sneak attack.

Kirik Haarn, Human, Mnk4;
"CR 4; Medium Humanoid; 5'/5';
HD 4d8+8; hp 34;
Init +7; Spd 40 ft/x5;
AC 15;
Atk +7 One-handed (1d8+2,20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +5/+5 Flurry of Blows (1d8+2/20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +6 One-handed (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken), +4/+4 Flurry of Blows (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken);
SV Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +6; AL LN;
Str 14(+2), Dex 16(+3), Con 14(+2), Int 14(+2), Wis 15(+2), Cha 13(+1);
Skills & Feats: Climb¹ +9, Disguise¹ +5, Hide¹ +12, Jump¹ +15, Listen¹ +5, Move Silently¹ +10, Spot¹ +5, Tumble +12.
Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Run, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)"

I'd consider dropping weapon finesse and/or weapon focus. The weapon focus is assuming that your fists will always be your best weapon - if you pick up enchanted weapons, that's not going to be true. Finesse is only giving you a single point of attack bonus too, although it's more generally applicable than focus.

Run also might not be the best of choices - chances to move in a straight line for long distances tend to be quite limited in most situations, and if you keep going monk, you'll continue to be able to outrun most foes without it. At the very least you'll be outrunning your party members, which is enough if you just want to save your bacon, and not enough to help them...

Have you considered any of the dragonmark feats? The 1/day mage armour of house deneith seems particularly tasty for a monk, as do the chill touch and produce flame powers of the aberrant dragonmarks.

 

[isoChron]

...Atk +7 One-handed (1d8+2,20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +5/+5 Flurry of Blows (1d8+2/20/x2, Unarmed Strike), +6 One-handed (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken), +4/+4 Flurry of Blows (1d2/20/x2, Shuriken);...

Don't forget to add your STR bonus to damage with the shuriken. 1d2 or 1d2+2 is quite different.
Good luck with your monk.

I'm playing a monk, too. Started with 31(!) point buy. Now at 8th level: STR14;DEX15;CON14;INT14;WIS14;CHA10.
I would never lower the INT because all I need are skillpoints... lots of them.
I took Martial Weapon Prof. at first level with Glaive so I have a decent reach weapon. Later I took improved disarm. Nothing more beautiful than disarm a charging fighter before he can reach you.
The weapon size bonus to disarm and the +4 from the feat do help a lot. The only time my monk shone in melee combat was as he disarmed 4 fighters with bastardswords. It took quite a punch out of their attacks.

The AC is pretty low (magic items are rare IOC) and HP aren't that good either. In serious combat he hits the floor very regulary. Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Jump, Tumble and UMD let the monk do something out of combat when a fighter with low skillpoints can be very boring. (Err, we dropped the class skill/cross class skill differentiation. All skills are class skills for everyone. Helped a lot to play the character you want, not what WotC wants.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of the nice things about shuriken is that it is a free action to draw them and you can include them in a flurry - so if you drop one opponent during a full attack you can whip out shuriken at other nearby foes if you wish. They are rarely fight-stoppers, but every little bit of damage helps.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Run, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike)"

I would definitely ditch run and weapon finesse, they will give you very little benefit. I'd replace Run with Cleave (every time you down someone and get to attack an adjacent bad guy you can flavour-text it as one of those dashing roundhouse kicks that takes down two opponents in the films!).

I'd probably replace weapon finesse with Point Blank Shot, because if you think you are going to be using the shuriken with any frequency all your attacks are going to be within 30ft anyway in all likelihood; however, a dragonmark feat would be much better for you in both the long and the short term.

I'd also recommend carrying a quarterstaff - you can flurry with it, you can use it two handed for +3 damage and 2-for-1 power attack whenever you only have one attack action etc.

Cheers