Advice regarding 'Skill Challenge'

[Celebrim]

Since I happen to know that some of my player's have discovered my secret identity, I'd ask them to please stay out of this thread. Spoiler warning.

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So, I want to run an event challenge for my PC's. While I don't want to structure the challenge according to the formal rules of a 4e skill challenge, the challenge structure lends itself to the general pattern of comparing the number of success to the number of failures. I've ran this sort of structure as a means of resolving contests as far back as 1e, but never in this particular context and not on the past 5 years or so. The closet I've come in the current campaign was the very first session, but that particular scenario was very much 'every man for himself' performing their own challenge and this one lends itself to a more cooperative structure. And since I imagine that this particular scenario is one that the 4e crowd has been leveraging quite a lot, I wouldn't mind having some advice regarding how to run it.

The general gist of the challenge is that the players are on a large ship at sea which is passing through a sub-tropical region during hurricane season. Even under normal circumstances and even ignoring the obvious fact that you can't go on a literary voyage without having a storm assail the ship, this makes it likely that they'll have to face at least one hurricane. But since one of the PC's has Nauti the Storm Lord as a personally enemy, likely (as in random weather checks might result in one) moves to certain.

I've already decided that the overall difficulty of the challenge depends on how they handle certain smaller challenges leading up to this big one. For example, in the last session, the entire senior crew suffered blowfish poisoning. The players, handled that pretty well - successfully preserving the lives of most of the petty officers. If the party doesn't protect a sufficient number of petty officers and at least a minimum number of crew during the voyage, then the DC of all the individual tests during the hurricane goes up. Likewise, if they don't protect the officers, then they'll lose the ability to substitute the officer's skill at handling the ship, navigation, and the like for their own - and this is a problem, because the PC with the best Boating and Navigation skill died in an earlier session. There are various other problems that the have to deal with that likewise could given them penalties or bonuses on all the checks that I don't need to go into because I've got that part of the design well handled.

What I need is advice on pacing and color. Assume you are running a storm in 4e, describe to me the events you'd expect to have that would trigger each particular attempt by the PC's to handle the situation. What sort of skill challenge framework would you use (number of rolls, etc.) and how would you go about making sure that the whole kept the interest of the players? Even if I don't exactly utilize your rules or mechanics, just seeing how you'd write this for 4e would be helpful for helping me structure things.

Also rather than simple 'pass/fail', I plan on using 'degree of success' to determine resolution, where I compare the number of successes to the number failures to determine how the PC's do.

Various outcomes I anticipate:

Almost no failures; ship comes through storm basically intact
Ship comes through storm with minimal damage and small loss of crew.
Ship comes though storm with moderate damage and small loss of crew..
Ship comes through storm with major damage and small loss of crew, is largely crippled, and must seek a harbor to effect expedient repairs.
As above, but also blown off course.
As above, but also badly blown off course and finds itself in a (fantasy) Sargasso which the players must extricate themselves from.
Almost no successes; ship capsizes, most crew killed, survivors are confined to boats and blown off course.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Celebrim , I'll try to post on "pacing and color" and keeping the players engaged in the thematic conflict you've got here when I have a bit more time (maybe this evening or this weekend). I've done something like this so I have some thoughts.

Regarding the mechanics, you may want to organize it around a few components that sort of mash Dungeon World and 4e's mechanics together:

1) Pick a base DC for low and high. This will work into the success (achieving the hard DC) > success with complications (exceeding the low DC but failing to achieve the high DC) > complications (failure to exceed the low DC) model.

2) Pick a number of successes and failures for the win and loss condition.

3) "Successes" and "Complications" trigger a win/loss tally in the overall framework.

4) "Successes" close down a threat and require the transitioning to a new situation.

5) "Complications" trigger a "hard" event or snowball and escalate a current conflict until the PCs deal with the current crisis.

6) "Success With Complications" doesn't doesn't garner a win tally but perhaps earns a minor bonus (eg + 1 or whatever fits the math for your system) to a subsequent action while simultaneously triggering a "soft" event that brings about something that complicates the PCs lives and follows from the current fiction.

Couple things to look at is the Adjure Ritual in 4e (which is its own discrete SC deal)

[sblock]Number of Successes Effect
0 or 1 The creature has authority over you and can issue one command that you must obey, a task that requires up to a day of effort.
2 or 3 You have immediate authority over the creature. You can command the creature to perform one task that takes no more than 5 minutes.
4 or 5 You have moderate authority over the creature. You can command the creature to perform a task that requires up to a day of effort.
6 or 7 You have significant authority over the creature. You can command the creature to perform a task that requires up to a week of effort.
8 or 9 You have great authority over the creature. You can command the creature to perform a task that requires up to a month of effort.
10 You have ultimate authority over the creature. You can command the creature to perform a task that requires up to a year and a day of effort.[/sblock]

And GM moves that are triggered off success with complications or outright failures in DW: http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/gamemastering#TOC-How-to-GM

The advice there is as good advice as I've found anywhere on GMing conflict resolution.

I'll post a follow-up later on with my thoughts on the thematic stuff to keep the pressure on the PCs for such a conflict.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I would go back to the 'Heroes of Battle' concept of creating the battle {in this case a storm} as a dungeon and make it the focus of a single game session. You would have a series of 'room's {individual skill challenges} connected by pathways {choices or results from the last room}

Then I would review Stalker0's material on skill challeges {see link in signature} and my own material on 'Lethal Obsideon' {a variant I used for replacing combats where failures resulted in damage to the PCs}

Pacing wise, look at a good storm movie. There are distinct phases of the storm that should give the PCs multiple possible choices of various pro/cons {your pathways}

Phase 1: Thar's a storm coming!
Clouds build on the horizen and the winds pick up. Quick, do you turn and run ahead of the storm to seek safe harbor {delaying arrival at your destination and potential side-trek}, try to skirt the storm, or forge straight in}
Phase 2: The Storm Hits
Key focus on handling the ship, staying on board, etc. Perhaps navigation to get the right tack on a close port and preparing the vessel for the fray.
Phase 3: Storm Peak
More ship handling, but harder.. alot of hanging on and hoping!
Phase 4: picking up the peices
Figure out where the ship is, which way to head now, do you have enough supplies {did your drinkable store of water get smashed?}

Color: This is going to depend alot on your players and what sort of game they like. I would love to dig into the details of running a ship and get the PCs directly involved in handling the lines, deciding which sails are furled or pitched. My group would be more inclined to leave that to the sailors and just make major decisions.
Either way, I would want to emphasis that this storm isn't just a side-note in the adventure.. its something the sailors will be talking about for years over pints of ale. To get the players talking about it for years means making their actions *matter*. {which, given DnD mechanics, usually means hit point/healing surge losses on failures... }

I would pull out my 'sailors slang' book {free kindle book!} for nautical terms to toss into the conversations, describe the storm based on my experience with south-western monsoons and typhoons.. and avoid pulling punches. Wind kicking at over 60 miles per hour is no joke.

 

[Celebrim]

Color: This is going to depend alot on your players and what sort of game they like.

I was thinking of color mostly along the lines of the individual events in the various phases you mentioned in broad terms earlier. Lightning strikes, waves, whatever. I'm interested both in the range of things I could have as events, and the number of them that would be good to have.

I would love to dig into the details of running a ship and get the PCs directly involved in handling the lines, deciding which sails are furled or pitched. My group would be more inclined to leave that to the sailors and just make major decisions.

If I still had a nautically themed PC, I'd probably more likely directly involve the PC in the details. As is, the issue is that for these decisions the NPC's are more skilled in handling the details. So I'm mostly interested in ways the PC's could be useful beyond taking the wheel of the ship and giving orders regarding sails and the like.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Come up with a series of incidents that can come up (not all of them will if the PCs are successful enough of course). First of all they need to use Nature to sense the oncoming storm in enough time to try to steer clear of its black heart. If they succeed then they've basically just got their first success without any additional complication, if they partly succeed then maybe they missed part of the storm but steered into some waters that are dangerous for another reason (reefs, etc). If they fail, well, then they just get the reefs...

Beyond that you can present a dynamically changing situation. The rigging is damaged, then the main mast breaks, then they ship too much water, then the ship goes down by the head from all the water, the boats break free, the ship capsizes, etc. Successes mitigate each thing and avoid the more serious complication that makes stuff worse, but basically another similar crisis will arise very soon, just they've survived that many more hours of storm.

So, that's how to do it. Maybe some of the challenges are leadership challenges, will the crew obey or will they decide the PCs are the problem and want to cast them overboard? Its possible the ship could survive WITHOUT the party, and the PCs end up in boats. The reunion from that could be awkward...

 

[Manbearcat]

When the PCs of my game are going to undertake a perilous journey of some kind (such as a seafaring expedition through the tropics to Island X), I would make sure to do the following:

1) Clarify the stakes of the greater conflict.

2) Make sure I understand the PCs goals.

3) Generate a small list of thematic conflicts that serve as the journey's antagonism. Most of the time this is pretty spontaneous, but sometimes I'll have some advanced notice.

In your case, for 3, I would consider the following potential conflicts in putting pressure on the PCs until the scene resolves itself:

a) Mutiny
b) Terror from the depths; sea monster of some ilk, Sahaugin
c) Rogue wave
d) Hurricane
e) Pirates
f) Adrift

F wouldn't be a potential conflict except for as fallout that must be managed due to a negative result in conflicts B - E. E might lead from A or A from E if the fiction warrants it. B, C, D are entirely self-contained and can be grabbed as required to keep the pressure on the PCs. Regardless, the snowballing of any one of A-F could lead to the loss condition being met, "a failed voyage and the likely loss of the ship (either to the bottom of the sea or wrested from the captain's grip)."

In 4e, you can treat the voyage as its own discrete (likely complexity 5; 12 success, 4 secondary skills, 6 advantages, 8 moderate/4 hard DCs) Skill Challenge (this is what I'd do) or, if you are so inclined, you could grab 3 or so of the above conflicts and run them as their own discrete scenes.

Regardless of how you handle it, I've always found that the best way to engage each player is to have a broad exposition of the scene, framing the whole in the conflict. Then, isolate each PC and put specific trouble right in their face NOW that they have to deal with.

For instance, Rogue Wave? I'm probably going to have the ship yaw wildly suddenly and demand that they roll a Group Acrobatics Check. Success? Ok. Jack the Fighter, a sickening crash draws your eyes to a few barrels that have come loose from their tie-downs and begin to roll. If that weight makes it to the far side of the ship, capsizing is likely! Dana the Druid, suddenly, the heavy lanterns hanging off the mast have come crashing down, catching fire to the linen mainsail! Wally the Wizard, you see the ship's helmsman is in a panic, has abandoned his post and is heading for the life-rafts. Without his expertise and leadership, the men handling the sails won't be able to recover the ship from its death-roll! And obviously there is an opportunity to rescue men overboard or for the players themselves to recover from being cast overboard. Players declare actions (which may involve secondary skills, advantages, primary skills, at-wills/encounters/dailes) and resolve them. The fiction changes as a result of how each "panel" resolves itself.

Once the Rogue Wave conflict is resolved, there may be some fallout to deal with. During that transition, the players may need to moralize the crew, assert their own leadership, make repairs to the ship (again declaring actions, deploying resources, resolving). Another action scene ensues (perhaps a few days into the future) when the Mutiny erupts due to lack of strong command and control during the Rogue Wave sequence (or something else happens). Finally the win or loss condition is met and the players goals are achieved or whatever was at stake is lost or compromised.

That is pretty much how I handle such things. I pretty much just handle it off the cuff with firm conflicts/antagonism in mind, clear stakes and goals, frame the scene, challenge players directly, initiate resolution procedures, rinse/repeat and find out what happens.

 

[the Jester]

Oooh, I love skill challenges- I'm actually in the middle of writing up what I think is going to be the final arc of my epic level 4e campaign, including separate SCs to summon Charon while on the banks of the River Styx and then persuade him to reveal information that was wiped from the memory of the universe via an epic ritual using the River Styx and an artifact as foci (but as Charon is immune to the River Styx' effect, he still knows).

Anyway, to begin with, I love the 'various levels of success' thing, and for the record, I consider this to be a 'proper' skill challenge; the base mechanics are better when tweaked to suit the challenge, as we saw over the life of 4e, so I think this is a legit SC.

So then- I think [MENTION=20805]Primitive Screwhead[/MENTION] has the phases right. Personally, if I were doing this skill challenge, it would be an extended one that took a good hour of real time and mixes in some elements that do real damage/cost surges.

So starting with Phase 1: Thar's a storm coming!, here's what I'd do.

During this phase, things would kick off with a Nature check from whoever the lookout/crow's nest guy/whatever was, to determine how much warning the ship had. Then maybe some kind of Navigation check to see how well they avoid or enter the storm. Running from it, given the pc's status with the storm god, seems like a way to never, ever reach their destination, so I suspect they will have to enter it eventually; even if they find shelter from this one, another will come when they try again. So yeah, some kind of Navigation check as they enter the storm and again periodically as they move through it.

Phase 2: The Storm Hits

I'd start with terrific winds and sudden waves; maybe require a check (Athletics, Acrobatics, or Endurance, at each character's option) to avoid being pushed toward the edge of the ship. Anyone who fails still gets a save to avoid falling overboard. This doesn't count toward the overall challenge, it's an additional complication.

Then the people on the ship can make some very difficult attempts to rescue any men overboard, or let them go and try to struggle on. Rescue attempts should be very hard, and anyone foolish enough to dive in to the sea in the attempt is likely to be lost as well. Those pc guys are heroic, though, and maybe will have some powers to help them. Regardless, the chill water and strenuousness of the attempt might require hard Endurance checks to avoid losing a healing surge. And this still doesn't count toward the overall challenge.

When they move on with whatever losses, the next thing I'd do is require another Navigation check. It would also set the difficulty of the next element of the challenge- the better the Navigation check, the easier the next thing.

I think I'd go with a few of barrels of water/food/something important breaking loose on deck. Quick, how do you stop them from rolling around and battering a bunch of the crew? And how do you stop them from going overboard (or do you)? Unless they think quickly, a few people might get injured.

This has been going on for hours, now! Make Endurance checks or lose a surge. (You may choose to make experienced sailor npcs immune to this one, since they'll only have one to three surges, and... well, this is designed to wear down pcs, who have more.)

Whoever is steering, make a Nature check to turn the ship against this next swell or the hull takes damage.

One of the lesser masts snaps in the wind. Dodge! Several people on deck, Make Acrobatics check or lose a surge. Then it tumbles off- but the ropes lash everyone. Make an attack against whoever is close enough. If it hits, lose a surge.

Phase 3: Storm Peak

Everyone is growing exhausted as the storm rages hour after hour. Make Endurance checks or lose another surge.

Keep navigating! Harder checks!

The boom swings loose, everyone on deck make an Acrobatics check to avoid damage! (This doesn't count toward the overall challenge.) Someone could try to catch it by making a very hard Athletics check. Or maybe using a power to stop it, if they have an appropriate one.

Lightning strikes the mainmast! Quick, save it or it will crack. Put that fire out! Whoever is in the crow's nest, if an npc, is cooked. If a pc, ouch! Lots of damage.

Another massive wave threatening to sweep crew overboard. (Again, doesn't count to the main challenge.)

The hours are wearing on- the exhaustion builds. Endurance or lose another surge!

More navigation! Harder! Which way are we going? Make a Nature or Perception check! Athletics to hold the wheel!

Too much water! To the pumps! Athletics and/or Endurance!

Waterborn debris smashes into the ship's hull. Quick, patch it or fix it somehow!

Several crewmen panic. Talk them down or threaten them, but whatever it takes, get them back to work! If you let them run and hide, the panic will spread.

Navigate through to the other side at last!

Phase 4: picking up the peices

One more Endurance check to avoid losing another surge, just to top things off. Some surviving sailors probably drop from exhaustion. Adjudicate results.

I'd love to see what you eventually come up with and to hear how it goes.

 

[Celebrim]

Thanks for all the responses.

I very much see the sense in Manbearcat's comment: "Regardless of how you handle it, I've always found that the best way to engage each player is to have a broad exposition of the scene, framing the whole in the conflict. Then, isolate each PC and put specific trouble right in their face NOW that they have to deal with." I'm just struggling with make this work as a group activity with PCs really not optimized for running a boat, and making it exciting. The last time I ran something like this - "Fleeing from a Tsunami (on foot)", I thought I had adequate scene preparation but found I ran out of ideas for "things that happen that making running away existing" a lot quicker than I realized I would, so that some of the mini-scenarios I'd imagined got a bit redundant faster than I imagined.

Maybe let's try this from a different perspective. In addition to novel events - cargo breaking lose in the hold, waves rocking the ship, lightning striking a mast, and so forth, I need inspiration regarding getting PC's involved in the scene instead of just huddling in the hold waiting for it to play out. At one time, one of the PC's was a pirate, so I thought this ocean voyage would be a perfect time to spotlight the PC's. However, the PC is now dead and none of the existing PC's is particularly skilled at the obvious skills - craft, navigation or boating.

So, brain storm seasons that suggest uses for the following skills:

Use Rope: Part of rigging comes lose? It would seem this ought to be really useful.

Leadership: This homebrew skill among other things is used to reduce fear and panic. I have a very good scene for inducing mass panic in mind which is too spoilerific to describe here, but any minor scenes would be great

Balance: Rocking boat, obviously, but what is going on that makes you need to run across deck?

Climb: Up the mast or rigging obviously, but why? Sail breaks loose and comes unfurled?

Endurance: The only thing I can think of hear is manning the pumps. Maybe "lighten the ship"? I'm not actually convinced this is a really good idea unless the ship is taking water. But then again, I'm not much of a sailor. Is this done to improve stability, or is it done to try to run ahead of a storm, or is it simply a matter of needing more speed to climb a big wave and maintain steerageway? I've at least one sailor in the group with real world experience, so I hate to introduce a problem by way of an NPC giving an order where I don't know if the order is a good one or not.

Appraisal: Among other things, this lets you assess an object's quality as well as value, so I'm thinking using it to test detecting some impending danger, but what? And how can I use this in a way that isn't redundant or anti-climatically scene shortening?

Survival: A big deal if you are a cast away or in a life boat without supplies, but is there a way to use this to keep the ship going? Early warning perhaps? Helping prepare the ship for the storm ("batten the hatches!", sort of thing)?

Intimidate/Diplomacy: What could you get skilled ship crew to do that the ship crew would perceive as being against their interests, and not just because they are panicking? I have an idea regarding what you can get them to not do, that involves a Jonah scenario, however, arguably resisting the Jonah solution is a failure rather than a success with respect to saving the boat...

What???

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, you mention a number of skills that 4e has eschewed, and I think that is the strength of 4e's skill system is that while you certainly won't be trained in everything you ARE likely to have pretty competent bonuses at least 1/3 of all the skills in the book, and probably only terrible ones on a few (more at really high levels perhaps). So between 3 characters you won't cover EVERY skill at a good bonus, but you're likely to cover 3/4 of them. For things that just don't match up with any given skill I suggest 2 things. First of all just use an ability check, INT to figure out a rope, etc. Secondly if a character 'should' know about that subject (they have a background as a sailor and need to use a rope say) then give them a +2 'background bonus' or maybe even a +5 full proficiency bonus for that one specific thing, its certainly well within the DM's prerogative and you're still dealing with broad strokes, not the narrow 3e style niche skills.

I don't want to start debating you about your homebrew, I just don't know how to address this issue in the context of the skill system hacks you seem to be using. I guess I'd mostly go back to ability checks.

 

[Balesir]

Use Rope: Part of rigging comes lose? It would seem this ought to be really useful.

Or avoid a 'climb' or 'balance' task by throwing the rope accurately?

Leadership: This homebrew skill among other things is used to reduce fear and panic. I have a very good scene for inducing mass panic in mind which is too spoilerific to describe here, but any minor scenes would be great

Get someone in danger of being washed overboard to "hang on"? Inspire everyone to use "one hand for yourself, and one for the ship" to keep safe while working?

Balance: Rocking boat, obviously, but what is going on that makes you need to run across deck?

Trips up the mast might involve balance (on a footrope while holding the spar - you have a hold on the spar, but stopping yourself tipping while working can be tricky, I understand)?

Climb: Up the mast or rigging obviously, but why? Sail breaks loose and comes unfurled?

This depends on how "medieval" you want your ship to be. In a storm a sailing ship of any sort wants to wear a bit of sail, but not too much. None at all will mean you give up all control - without headway you can't steer and are just drifting - but too much will result in damage to the masts, spars, sails and rigging, possibly causing catastrophe.

Ships in the (much later) 'Age of Sail' adjusted sail by crew members climbing up to the spars, walking out on footropes while clinging onto the spars with their arms and then leaning over the spar to haul up the sail and (un)tie the reefing lines that were attached to the sail at intervals. As a storm approached, as many "topmen" as possible would work at this to reef in the sails fast.

On a medieval ship, on the other hand, the yard had to be turned in line with the ship and lowered to the deck in order to adjust sail - then the yard had to be hauled back up.

In the former case, a need for "climb" is easy - get those reefs in quick! In the second case it's a bit more tricky, but a couple of possibilities might be (a) the lookout (in the crow's nest - these were mounted on masts from at least the Roman period on) gets caught before (s)he can get down and needs rescuing, or (b) the halyard used to lower the yard to the deck gets jammed as the crew hurry to adjust sail for the storm. Someone will have to go up and un-jam it (climb and balance both needed - Athletics and Acrobatics, in 4E).

Endurance: The only thing I can think of hear is manning the pumps. Maybe "lighten the ship"? I'm not actually convinced this is a really good idea unless the ship is taking water. But then again, I'm not much of a sailor. Is this done to improve stability, or is it done to try to run ahead of a storm, or is it simply a matter of needing more speed to climb a big wave and maintain steerageway? I've at least one sailor in the group with real world experience, so I hate to introduce a problem by way of an NPC giving an order where I don't know if the order is a good one or not.

As a ship takes on water she gets both slower and more prone to capsize - both bad. Slower is worse than simply not making way; remember that ships cannot steer without some headway! Rudders don't do a damn thing if you're not moving relative to the water you are in.

Another, completely different aspect - seasickness. Combatting this and just working through it would be Endurance. The consequences of succumbing can be severe; I have had serious seasickness precisely once in many times at sea, and I was good for essentially nothing (even though I was theoretically working) while I had it. Some have reported literally wishing to die while suffering from it, and my original scepticism evaporated after I "got it bad".

Appraisal: Among other things, this lets you assess an object's quality as well as value, so I'm thinking using it to test detecting some impending danger, but what? And how can I use this in a way that isn't redundant or anti-climatically scene shortening?

What if there were several similar objects - belaying points, for example - and picking which were likely to give way and which not was the required action?

Survival: A big deal if you are a cast away or in a life boat without supplies, but is there a way to use this to keep the ship going? Early warning perhaps? Helping prepare the ship for the storm ("batten the hatches!", sort of thing)?

Early warning and rigging hold and stair covers, tying stuff down so it doesn't break loose and making sure stuff like fresh water is kept safe?

Intimidate/Diplomacy: What could you get skilled ship crew to do that the ship crew would perceive as being against their interests, and not just because they are panicking? I have an idea regarding what you can get them to not do, that involves a Jonah scenario, however, arguably resisting the Jonah solution is a failure rather than a success with respect to saving the boat...

Maybe an enticeing island - complete with sheltering lagoon - is detected by the party mage as an illusion/enchantment and the characters must dissuade the crew from heading straight for such obvious salvation? The "isle" might even have been conjured by the party's enemies...