AEG Loses Stargate SG-1!!!

[Roudi]

A voice crys out from the sidelines:

"Give it to The Brood!"

 

[Ranger REG]

That's just what I hope.

You can hope but until Green Ronin triple their game designer pool, they can only squat on it for two years before getting around to releasing the first product.

They got a lot on their plate, especially pushing Dragon Fist out from the backburner to getting it released (hopefully) this year, their continuing MnM line, Blue Rose, Warhammer, etc.

 

[King of Old School]

It's only as bad as you want it to be. I ran a weekly Spycraft game for about 6 months using hardly any of the extra sourcebooks. Even then, I mostly used the equipment from them, not the new optional rules. Spycraft is a complete game in itself.

It is -- I wouldn't like it at all if it wasn't. I think it would be more complete with stuff like martial arts, supergadgets and gambling in the core, given the genre it claims to emulate, but it's far from unplayable from the core.

That said, it's the way the extra stuff is packaged that really bugs me. Want martial arts rules for Spycraft? You have to buy this setting-specific supplement for a setting you may or may not even own (it's not in the corebook) to get them -- that's a lot of extra stuff you're paying for if all you want is the martial arts rules (same goes for superscience and gambling). Want material for the swinging '60s era of Spycraft? All well and good, but it references rules systems that appear not in the core, but in yet another supplement -- so if you want to make full use of the '60s supplement, you also need the second supplement whether you really want it or not. There's a point at which the company is obnoxiously spreading out the content to encourage multiple book purchases, and it's perfectly valid to criticize it.

KoOS

 

[Greatwyrm]

There's a point at which the company is obnoxiously spreading out the content to encourage multiple book purchases, and it's perfectly valid to criticize it.

KoOS

But what game doesn't have multiple supplements anymore? There's a realistic limit to what you can put in a core book in the first place. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is this really different from D&D or d20Modern?

In D&D, there are basic planar rules, but if you what the real thing, you gotta get the MotP. Want psionics? Get a whole separate book for that. Want lots of good info on warforged? You'll need not only the ECS, but RoE as well.

d20Modern is even more like that. A couple of barely complete magic systems. A handful of recycled D&D monsters. Only the most basic weapons and gear. Want more? Well, we've got the Menace Manual, Equipment Locker, d20Future, d20Past, Urban Arcana, and (insert deity of your choice) knows how many 3rd party supplements.

I just don't get why Spycraft seems to get so much grief for providing optional rules when the core d20 games follow pretty much exactly the same model.

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

But what game doesn't have multiple supplements anymore? There's a realistic limit to what you can put in a core book in the first place. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is this really different from D&D or d20Modern?

I will bite...

first start with the SRD. Most of the RULES for these thinsg are available without additional purchase, thru the SRD.When i was Gming my DND game, if i needed odd stuff for a change, i did not need to buy another rules book if i wanted the official rules.

Second, there is a different between the full blown planar setting material and the basic rules.

outting martial arts for a modern spy game in a non-core book and leaving that as the only way to get it is not the same as having basic planar info available and then expanding that with lots more setting material in another sourcebook.

In D&D, there are basic planar rules, but if you what the real thing, you gotta get the MotP. Want psionics? Get a whole separate book for that. Want lots of good info on warforged? You'll need not only the ECS, but RoE as well.

Showing my ignorance, not even sure what warforged and the other abbreviations are, which tells me they were not NEEDED at all.

As for the other, the psionic rules, epic rules and divine rules are all in the srd.

d20Modern is even more like that. A couple of barely complete magic systems. A handful of recycled D&D monsters. Only the most basic weapons and gear. Want more? Well, we've got the Menace Manual, Equipment Locker, d20Future, d20Past, Urban Arcana, and (insert deity of your choice) knows how many 3rd party supplements.

Want more? Buy more?

Need martial arts in your spy campaign?

do you see a difference?

some do.

I just don't get why Spycraft seems to get so much grief for providing optional rules when the core d20 games follow pretty much exactly the same model.

Some see a difference between setting expansion with many major rules systems provided free online and the break-needed-rules-across-multiple-products approaches. Some prefer one over the other.

it seems rather obvious to me.

 

[wingsandsword]

But what game doesn't have multiple supplements anymore? There's a realistic limit to what you can put in a core book in the first place. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is this really different from D&D or d20Modern?

There have been only a few d20 Modern suppliments; Urban Arcana, Menace Manual, Weapons Locker, & d20 Future. 4 Suppliments released over about 2 years, they seem to come out with them at about 1 every 6 months. Spycraft released dozens of books in the same time, each one covering a single small aspect of the game.

d20 Modern had rules for martial artists, scientists, psionics, magic and monsters. It may not have gone into great depth with any of them, but it did touch a lot of bases. Free web enhancements gave us prestige classes like Mastermind, Sniper and SpecOp, as well as lots of stats for new vehicles, poisons and radiation sickness. The modern SRD meant that if you just wanted to use a new advanced class or some spells, you could, but the books themselves offer more material.

Given how warforged were just invented last year, and are very setting-specific, after 30 years of D&D, laying blame for them not being in the core rules is hardly fair. Spycraft put loads of generic rules material into setting-specific books. Martial artists are hardly specific only to the Shadowforce Archer setting, but they were only detailed in books for that setting. Scientists/gadgeteers are fairly integral to the spy genre (Q?), but those were only covered in another side-book.

d20 Modern is also a lot more portable for other d20 exports than Spycraft. Spycraft works on a different power scale and completely different sets of feats and skills, and while it's based on the d20 System, it's different enough that converting things is a real pain. d20 Modern can handle most spells, psionics, and creatures from D&D with little in the way of conversion, trying to rewrite things for Spycraft is a chore, that I quickly gave up on.

 

[King of Old School]

But what game doesn't have multiple supplements anymore? There's a realistic limit to what you can put in a core book in the first place. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but how is this really different from D&D or d20Modern?

In D&D, there are basic planar rules, but if you what the real thing, you gotta get the MotP. Want psionics? Get a whole separate book for that. Want lots of good info on warforged? You'll need not only the ECS, but RoE as well.

But I wouldn't for a moment suggest that planar travel, psionics or the warforged are as core to the D&D genre as martial arts, supergadgets or gambling are to the cinematic superspy genre. Would you? And it's not like you have to invest in setting supplements to get rules for psionics or planar travel (I'll ignore the warforged because they are a setting-specific element and not generic at all, thus not relevant).

I just don't get why Spycraft seems to get so much grief for providing optional rules when the core d20 games follow pretty much exactly the same model.

Leaving aside the massive, massive amount of grief that d20 Modern has gotten for its selection of corebook material... the difference is in how "core" the farmed-out material is in Spycraft when compared to stuff like D&D.

KoOS

 

[Greatwyrm]

Some see a difference between setting expansion with many major rules systems provided free online and the break-needed-rules-across-multiple-products approaches. Some prefer one over the other.

it seems rather obvious to me.

And I suppose it also depends on what you determine "needed" to be. Gadget rules (including guidelines for new ones, see pg 240), Martial Arts (like the numerous Melee Combat and Unarmed Combat feat trees), and Gambling (see pg 241) are all in the core Spycraft book.

Spycraft put loads of generic rules material into setting-specific books.

No, they put loads of generic rules into the core book. They put more detailed, optional rules in other supplements.

And it's not like you have to invest in setting supplements to get rules for psionics or planar travel...

And it's not like you need to invest in other supplements to get rules for the main things everyone seems to think is missing from the core Spycraft book. Want more detail? Get the supplement. It's hardly a new idea.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Given how warforged were just invented last year, and are very setting-specific, after 30 years of D&D, laying blame for them not being in the core rules is hardly fair.

No, but I think it's entirely fair to make the same comparison since they are considered core to the Eberron campaign setting. Warforged get a few pages in the Eberron Campaign Setting book, but it's probably safe to assume they'll be covered in much greater detail in Races of Eberron. In that sense, it's the same thing we're already tallking about -- generic rules in the main book and more detailed ones in the supplements.

 

[bubbalin]

Aieee!!!

My head hurts.

I came here to relax...

Curse you all!

(Another on topic post to keep things exciting)