AEG: War

[rounser]

I'd like to see either:

a) An abstract mass combat non-miniatures ruleset ala War Machine which complements d20, or

b) A ruleset that works alongside d20 instead of replacing it, such that the rules never change where the PCs are concerned except for leadership considerations - the war ruleset just deals with "off-camera" fighting.

The publishers currently seem to be wanting to replace d20 with their own rules where the PCs are concerned. This, IMO, is bollocks, because if the PCs die under special war rules, there will be complaints that they could have done X if they were using true d20 rules.

 

[Eben]

You're right: the average PC can do a hell of a lot more than the average character in a wargame. There is a difference in scale that is too great. You can't manage a wargame with the level of detail that a RPG offers. So I think that a system for running mass battles should focus on the PC's role as a commander. On the other hand there would have to be a danger for a character who walks onto a battle-field. So, next to the actual battle you would have to make a system for your characters to have battle-field encounters. These encounters would have to be managed by the d20 combat system.
This way you might not do right by the combat prowess of your PC, but it would continue to be manageable.

 

[Psion]

I'd like to echo a sentiment I noticed above.

Publishers: Enough with the Goddam prestige classes!

Filling your supplements with pages and pages of PrC's is a lazy, cheap way fo doing things.

Thank you for your time.

And I would like to say that there are plenty of people out there who don't share your sentiment. Just look how fast Librum Equitis shot to the top of the charts.

I for one like prestige classes... at least well done ones. The PrC's in War are very well done, and would be useful for creating distinctive figures in War-oriented campaigns.

I understand that there are those of you who could live without prestige classes. But there are many who like them. If you stamp your feet despondently while the guy next to you forks over the cash, who do you think they are going to listen to? Money talks, whining walks.

 

[King_Stannis]

And I would like to say that there are plenty of people out there who don't share your sentiment. Just look how fast Librum Equitis shot to the top of the charts.

I for one like prestige classes... at least well done ones. The PrC's in War are very well done, and would be useful for creating distinctive figures in War-oriented campaigns.

I understand that there are those of you who could live without prestige classes. But there are many who like them. If you stamp your feet despondently while the guy next to you forks over the cash, who do you think they are going to listen to? Money talks, whining walks.

but do we need them in just about EVERY supplement?

it kind of goes back to one of my beefs about the state of RPG supplements in general.....there doesn't seem to be any "player only" or "dm only" products anymore. probably due to cost and market, i know. if they make a "dm only" product, then they reduce their potential market drastically. but i'm just sick and tired of seeing prestige classes, new feats and player goodies in products geared mainly for dm's. get your chocolate out of my peanut butter!

forgive my whining....it's what i do best.

 

[enrious]

I tend to think that there are way too many Prestige Classes out there - they are the 3rd edition version of a kit (meaning that sometimes it seems companies make them just to say they have PrCs in their products).

Well done PrCs are a joy - such as the ones in Librum Equitis Vol. 1 but others are painful to behold.

Just my thoughts.

Oh, and I agree regarding the lack of DM or Player specific materials. I liked the division but suspect the economy wouldn't bear it today.

 

[Psion]

but do we need them in just about EVERY supplement?

Not at all. I was just providing a counterpoint to the demand "stop with prestige classes!" You say that, I'm like "NOOOOOO!" Not that I think your complaint is going to stop anyone so long as the sales are brisk, but you never know.

it kind of goes back to one of my beefs about the state of RPG supplements in general.....there doesn't seem to be any "player only" or "dm only" products anymore. probably due to cost and market, i know. if they make a "dm only" product, then they reduce their potential market drastically.

That's one of those "so what are you going to do" situations.

PrCs are one of the few peices of material that seems to do double duty. While primarily for players, it has been so long since I have played when I review items, I primarily muse to myself how these can be applied as NPCs.

 

[mkletch]

War Machine 3E ... please!

I think that a well done system similar to the War machine could be simple, effective, use few tables and take into account most/all of the standard 3E rules. If anybody plays Empires in Arms by Avalon Hill, you know what sort of combat system I am looking for. Not at quite that high a level, though. But I want everything I need in two 8.5"x11" sheets of tables in a 5 or 6 point font, plus a rulebook for reference on special circumstances.

No tabletop system accurately models 3E, not even Chainmail; that is a dead end for this niche. If you want tabletop 3E, you're going to have to do the 'force reduction' method of the old days. Play 3E with miniatures, and each single figure fights as a single figure but represents 10, 20, 50 or 100 guys. How you figure a single PC into the mix is a problem, and is really reaching back to the origins of D&D. The problem has come full circle.

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I do agree that feats and prestige classes will get out of hand if things continue. Not every book has to have a bunch of new feats and prestige classes. If a module or other supplement comes out and they want to detail something unique then hey throw a new prestige class in and a couple of feats. However there is no need for 15 new feats and 10 new prestige classes per book. Look at FRCS. A huge book and what 5 prestige classes and I don't know maybe 20 feats? It is a whole campaing setting.

Back to the orignal topic. I think we might be just wishing for the stars with this one. Companies my feel that there is no market or need for such rules to be defined.

 

[King_Stannis]

i know it's sort of setting specific, but i thought birthright did a pretty good job integrating a mass combat system into d&d. it could very easily be converted to 3e, IMO.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Well, where attempts in WAR and the Quintissential fighter.

Apperantly there is a system in a downloadable book called timelines, and there is a book called Fields of blood: a guide to war that may or may not be coming out.

There does seem to be some interest in the publishing community and based on this thread and the one i put in D20 publishers there seems to be interest on the part of the gamers. So i guess we just need to wait and see whats good and what isn't as products are released. Somebody has to get it right sooner or later.