Affected by a spell

[steev42]

What exactly determines whether a creature has been affected by a spell? Are they affected if they are forced to make a save? What if the save is 'negates'...if they make the safe, are they considered affected?

The Sleep spell is the primary reason I ask. It affects 4 Hit Dice of creatures in a 10' radius burst, Will negates. Assume a bunch of 2HD creatures in perfect formation for the 10' radius. The first 2 creatures make their saves...does it move on until 4 HD of creatures are asleep, or does it end there?

I was hoping the recent 'Reading the Spell Description' articles on Wizards' site would answer this question, but it doesn't seem to have. Any help (preferably with references, if possible) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[andargor]

Sleep is an area spell (burst).

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects.
(...)
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
(...)
Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.

THE SPELL'S RESULT

Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.

So:

1) You determine the origination point for the spell
2) The creatures within the AoE roll for saves
3) Those that fail and that are not immune to sleep effects are affected

Andargor

 

[Egres]

Sleep is an area spell (burst).





So:

1) You determine the origination point for the spell
2) The creatures within the AoE roll for saves
3) Those that fail and that are not immune to sleep effects are affected

Andargor

Hmm..i think i didn't understand your reply well.

Are you saying that the Sleep spell will target the creatures with few hd first,but if they make their saves succesfully they wouldn't be considered "affected",and then the spell will "move on" to the next targets?

 

[Droid101]

He's saying that once the spell determines what creatures are affected, they get their saves. It doesn't "move" to new creatures after the first ones fail, because it has already affected the HD limit in creatures.

 

[Egres]

He's saying that once the spell determines what creatures are affected, they get their saves. It doesn't "move" to new creatures after the first ones fail, because it has already affected the HD limit in creatures.

?
You say:
once the spell determines what creatures are affected, they get their saves.

He said:

2) The creatures within the AoE roll for saves
3) Those that fail and that are not immune to sleep effects are affected

Then?

What comes first?

The save or the "affect" effect?

Are they affected before or after the saving throw?

 

[andargor]

?
You say:
once the spell determines what creatures are affected, they get their saves.

He said:

2) The creatures within the AoE roll for saves
3) Those that fail and that are not immune to sleep effects are affected

Then?

What comes first?

The save or the "affect" effect?

Are they affected before or after the saving throw?

If you want to know exactly how a sleep spell would work:

A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.

Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

1) You determine the origination point for the spell, creatures within 10 ft of the origination point are eligible "targets".
2) The creatures that are eligible targets roll for saves, lowest HD first (or closest to origination point if equal HD), as per the description of the spell.
3) Those that save are not affected, but count towards the maximum HD limit anyway. If insufficient HD of effect remains for a creature, the creature is not affected, even if it fails its save. The others are affected.

Andargor

 

[Egres]

Ok,then you are saying that only targets that suffer the effects of the spell are "affected".

But, what does this mean then?

From the SRD:

THE SPELL’S RESULT
Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails.


This statement seems to say that even targets that have made succesfully their saving throws can be "affected".

I'm a bit confused now....

 

[nhl_1997]

Example:

Sleep is cast centered among these creatures:
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
2 hit-die ape distance 5'
1 hit-die human warrior distance 10'
1 hit-die human warrior distance 10'
1 hit-die elven archer distance 10'

First, we need to figure out which creatures are targeted.....

1) Sleep specifically does not target undead creatures, so the skeletons are not targeted.

2) Lower hit-die creatures are targeted before higher hit-die creatures.

3) Among creatures with equal hit-dice, ones closest to the spell's origin are targeted first.

3.5) If there is still a tie, roll randomly to see which are targeted (not stated in the rules, so I guess that would be a house rule.) This does not occur in my example, though.


Even though the elf is immune to sleep, the spell still targets the elf. Only unconscious creatures, constructs, and undead are ignored by the spell.

The two human warriors are both targeted, and the elven archer is also targeted taking up three of the alloted four hit-dice able to be targeted. Since the ape has two hit-dice, it is not targeted by the spell.

The elf is immune to sleep, so no saving throw is necessary.

Both human warriors receive a will save to negate the sleep effect.

Does this answer your question?

 

[steev42]

Does this answer your question?

Very well. Thank you very much for your help. This was the way I assumed it went, but I couldn't find the appropriate references for it.

 

[Egres]

Example:

Sleep is cast centered among these creatures:
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
1/2 hit-die skeleton distance 5'
2 hit-die ape distance 5'
1 hit-die human warrior distance 10'
1 hit-die human warrior distance 10'
1 hit-die elven archer distance 10'

First, we need to figure out which creatures are targeted.....

1) Sleep specifically does not target undead creatures, so the skeletons are not targeted.

2) Lower hit-die creatures are targeted before higher hit-die creatures.

3) Among creatures with equal hit-dice, ones closest to the spell's origin are targeted first.

3.5) If there is still a tie, roll randomly to see which are targeted (not stated in the rules, so I guess that would be a house rule.) This does not occur in my example, though.


Even though the elf is immune to sleep, the spell still targets the elf. Only unconscious creatures, constructs, and undead are ignored by the spell.

The two human warriors are both targeted, and the elven archer is also targeted taking up three of the alloted four hit-dice able to be targeted. Since the ape has two hit-dice, it is not targeted by the spell.

The elf is immune to sleep, so no saving throw is necessary.

Both human warriors receive a will save to negate the sleep effect.

Does this answer your question?

Can we say then that the Elf is "affected"?