D&D 3E/3.5 After errata, is the Grab monster ability as obnoxious as 3E's Improved Grab?

[frankthedm]

Improved Grab, and the grapple rules in general, seemed turned some games into Grapplers & Grabasses back in the 3E era. Pathfinder made some tweeks to the set up and for a while Grabbing creatures seemed less a big deal, but now the ability getting errata'ed to include victims of the creature's OWN size. That makes a big difference since getting Enlarged was an easy way to negate Grab for any Large critter fighting you.

Page 301—In the Grab section, in the first paragraph, delete the second sentence, which reads “Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.” After the second paragraph, add the following paragraph:

Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature’s Special Attacks line​

Due to this change, have any of you found the Grab ability getting on your nerves again?

 

[tylermalan]

What does grab do again?

 

[frankthedm]

Grab is the ability that lets a monster trigger a grapple roll by hitting with a specified natural attack. If you have had a big monster first hit you and then not let you go, you probably were Grabbed.
[sblock=Grab(Ex)]Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.

Format: grab; Location: individual attacks.[/sblock]Often linked with Constrict[sblock=Constrict]
Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

Format: constrict (1d8+6); Location: Special Attacks.
[/sblock]

 

[tylermalan]

Man, in the game I'm playing now, we had a Druid with a snake, and that thing was super annoying. It grabbed everything, and we had all this confusion about whether or not it could assist another's grapple check and stuff like that.

As for the change regarding size, I have no idea.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Not at all.

But then I didn't exactly hate it in 3.5 either, so....

A while back I used one in the kids game for a giant octopus - slap for no damage, then grab... and not let go. No attack, just hanging on while the PC first tried to peel it off (nuh uh! I like it here!) then just swam off, ignoring it.... Based on real octopus behavior... just hitchin' a ride....

The Auld Grump

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I voted yes, but the poll is poorly worded. The change itself only makes it slightly more annoying, and Imp. Grab was never a huge pet peeve of 3E for me in the first place (grapple checks were so obscenely high and grapple negating measures so common and necessary that as my friend put it, "grapple has no settings between high and off," and I learned to deal with that).

My yes vote is simply to say PF didn't fix anything, regardless of whether or not it needed fixing. Grab is basically on the same level as Imp. Grab was.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Had a little bit of trouble with Grab in 3rd edition. Pretty rare. I think one player was grabbed and swallowed whole. He ended up dead. That's probably the most memorable instance.

Grappling is more annoying as a DM when used by players against monsters rather than as monsters against players. After 7th level or so freedom of movement is very common. And melee types have really high CMDs or they kill stuff so fast it is often detrimental for a monster to spend its time grabbing a PC and then getting hacked apart by one of the other PCs. Once the creature makes the grapple, he is committed to it. Not only can the creature grappled still attack with a one handed weapon, all the other players can pile on their attacks and the creature has a lower AC and can't make AoOs I don't believe. So it gives up a lot to grapple, which usually isn't too smart against a group.

Grappling is more effective against casters. It hammers them pretty hard since you can no longer cast even verbal spells while grappled without making a near impossible CMB check. I consider a freedom of movment ring a must for arcane casters at least now.

PC grapplers are a nightmare against many monsters. They can make any monster without an insanely high CMD and pin it making a fight against such a monster trivial. Most monsters can't make the concentration checks to activate spell-like abilities while grappled by a PC. As far as I know grapple doesn't have size limits. They assume the bigger, stronger creatures can't be grappled. Which is mostly true, but PCs still hammer with grapple harder than monsters. My dwarf grappler monk made encounters with golems trivial by grabbing them up and holding them in place while the fighter hammered them to pieces.

So no, not really a problem. Grappling PCs far more annoying, especially now that unarmed strike magic and feat bonuses add to grapple checks now.

 

[Walking Dad]

I voted yes, because it causes more grapples. Grappling (IMHO) is one of the things nearly no d20 game really shines.

This maybe part of the philosophy that combat options suck, unless you spend feats on them. And once you do, the options become often no-brainers, resulting not in options, but so called "one-trick-ponies".
Adding the less than simple rules for grappling and you have not the most fun part of Pathfinder.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Grab was not that bad, if you remember to apply the -20 penalty to the roll, if the monster does not want to be considered grabbed itself.

So even though the initial grab attempt succeds usually (bigger monsters easily grab PC characters) You must immerdiatly chose to maintain it usually, which means that you are considered grabbed and oppose yourself to sneak attacks and all such things... or you can chose to use only the limb you used to attack to maintain the grab and be not considered grabbed and only unable to use the limb for different attacks resulting in a -20 modifier, which allows the PC to escape with about 60% succes or so.

I don´t know if pathfinder retained this penalty.

 

[frankthedm]

Grab was not that bad, if you remember to apply the -20 penalty to the roll, if the monster does not want to be considered grabbed itself..

Not always worth it, Grapple consequences are not so painful and maintaining the grapple takes a standard action anyway in PF so going all in usually worthwhile. Notably you are not exposed to sneak attacks in grapple*,

*Pre errata a copy and paste error with a table made it look like one still lost dex bonus while grappled