AI/LLMs AI art bans are going to ruin small 3rd party creators

[Morrus]

I can dream up all kinds of great images in my head but haven't got the art-making ability to put them on paper or screen. That's where I need some sort of processor, be it human or machine, to do it for me to my instructions.

The important thing there, as you say, that they are doing it for you. You are not doing it.

 

[Lanefan]

If you honestly believe a musician following sheet music is just an instructions processor, no different than a mindless robot, then I see no point in continuing this conversation. Have a nice day.

I've known a few people who, with sheet music in front of them, could play that music perfectly no matter how difficult or demanding or technical.

But take away the sheet music and they - quite seriously - couldn't play a note.

To me, those people were functioning as non-creative instruction processors; with the actual creativity having been done by whoever composed the music in the first place.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I've known a few people who, with sheet music in front of them, could play that music perfectly no matter how difficult or demanding or technical.

But take away the sheet music and they - quite seriously - couldn't play a note.

To me, those people were functioning as non-creative instruction processors; with the actual creativity having been done by whoever composed the music in the first place.

The first rule of holes is: when you are in one, stop digging.

/popcorn

 

[Lanefan]

Once again for emphasis:
"Either one is, at that point, just an instructions processor; similar to a pianist perfectly playing sheet music exactly as the sheet tells him to."

This may be the first time I have ever seen a performing musician referred to as "an instructions processor". It's easy to tell when someone puts themselves out as never having played music (or draw/painted/etc. art) yet wants to tell everyone else what is involved in the process. The arrogance involved is just staggering.

I've done a fair bit of music playing, songwriting etc. over the years.

And let me note - this is in no way saying you have to have "done something" to criticize something. But you should probably have "done it" or at least understand it before you start publicly reducing it to a simple mechanical task. If it's so simple then you should take a shot at doing it yourself.

Creativity = making or creating something new, either from nothing or from amending or tweaking something pre-existing.

Playing freeform is pure creativit, all on the player's part.

Playing to sheet music and putting your own spin on it is also pure creativity, but credit for that creativity must be shared between the player and the original composer (if not the same).

Playing to someone else's sheet music without any alterations or spin? It's a very open question as to whether there's any actual creativity involved on the part of the player even though it's the player's effort/work/physical talent that turns those marks on the page into sound.

Ditto a chef following a recipe to the exact letter vs making a few alterations or trying an experiment.

 

[Morrus]

I've done a fair bit of music playing, songwriting etc. over the years.

Creativity = making or creating something new, either from nothing or from amending or tweaking something pre-existing.

Playing freeform is pure creativit, all on the player's part.

Playing to sheet music and putting your own spin on it is also pure creativity, but credit for that creativity must be shared between the player and the original composer (if not the same).

Playing to someone else's sheet music without any alterations or spin? It's a very open question as to whether there's any actual creativity involved on the part of the player even though it's the player's effort/work/physical talent that turns those marks on the page into sound.

Ditto a chef following a recipe to the exact letter vs making a few alterations or trying an experiment.

You really don’t like people who make things, do you? Art, music, food… you really don’t value any of their hard work, years of training, and the skills they’ve learned? At all?

 

[Lanefan]

Ultimately it feels like a hypocritical stance, they should be allowed to do what their ethics allows, but anyone else with their own ethics can't.

I don't see either Foundarys actions or the OPs actions as better or worse than the other in terms of 'cramming morals down throats of others', just obviously if one parties actions align with my morals and ethics, and one doesn't, I will support one partys actions and not the other.

On the bolded, we agree: that's the point I was trying to make.

Which if either party's actions one then supports is obviously one's own decision.

 

[Lanefan]

The important thing there, as you say, that they are doing it for you. You are not doing it.

If I'm doing something to someone else's exact instructions I'm creating it in the sense that I'm making something that didn't exist before, but there's no actual creativity involved on my part.

Maybe that's the disconnect: some are defining creativity as including the act(s) of physical production where I'm defining creativity as the imagination and original thought that precedes and-or accompanies the physical production process(es).

 

[Umbran]

Seems Foundry wants to do the reverse, though, and force their morals and ethics on to their users.

Why, from an objective viewpoint, is one of these OK and the other not?

Objective morals and ethics? Really?

Legally, Foundry, as an organization, OWNS their platform. They get to choose what they want on it, or not. There are some limits on how they make those choices - rejecting an author based on their gender or the color of their skin might get them in trouble. But "believer in generative AI" is not currently a protected class.

It is much like Morrus owns this site, and gets to set the rules thereby.

Private businesses do not owe you their platforms unconditionally.

 

[ART!]

Playing to someone else's sheet music without any alterations or spin? It's a very open question as to whether there's any actual creativity involved on the part of the player even though it's the player's effort/work/physical talent that turns those marks on the page into sound.

I'm not a musician, but I'm not sure such a thing is possible - to play from sheet music with no interpretation whatsoever.

 

[Lanefan]

You really don’t like people who make things, do you? Art, music, food… you really don’t value any of their hard work, years of training, and the skills they’ve learned? At all?

I love people who make things!

See my previous post, though, re the vital role of original thought and imagination in defining creativity vs production.

An assembly line worker might have loads of training and skill but probably the last thing you want on the job is any creativity or variance or originality; instead the true skill is to correctly do the exact same thing every time, as per instructions and training. And out of that process comes a car, which that worker helped make but did not help create.