D&D 4E AICN 4e Review Part 2: DMing 4e

[Spatula]

I did when I was a kid playing 1e AD&D and my older brother was DM. It was based on an extradimensional bazaar from Robert Asprin's Myth books, I think.

But they are a departure from the assumptions of the game.

No, Lizard is exactly correct in that there are no Magic Item Walmarts in 3e (EDIT: that the DM does not put there himself). The DMG makes no assumptions about how you get items, it merely says that they are in some way available in cities of large enough size.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Except, of course, embedded reporters are in the midst of life-and-death combat situations, getting to know and even bonding with men and women risking their lives. In addition, reporting negative news, weaknesses, etc. from a combat situation can be construed as harmful to unit morale, and providing aid to the enemy. These elements have a lot more to do with this syndrome than merely feeling spiffy by being a part of something special and/or exclusive.

QFT.

I find equating an rpg playtest with being in a combat zone both ignorant and offensive.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm going to leave the "embedded reporter" comment stay, unedited, because I think folks are keeping the comments since then non-political (and a lot of posts would make no sense if I did edit it), but in the future it would be a good idea to use examples that are don't touch on the prohibited areas that ENWorld shies away from.

In the meantime, keep the conversation going! And if anyone has any questions or concerns about this, please let me or another mod know by email (not in this thread)!

 

[lkjopajdowma]

"The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought or sold much as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high- level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer [sic] (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares."

DMG page 142

Also critics of 3e often use the phrases 'magic shops' or 'Magic Wal*Mart' to mean 'magic item trade' ie magic items can be bought or sold. It's one reason I've argued against the use of the terms, their meaning is very unclear.

I've never had a problem with this in 3e. The uses of the word "might" implies that there may be shops that sell magical items. Nowhere in there does it say there needs to be. It also doesn't say anything about "You must have shops that sell every magical item the PCs can afford". My group and I have always played games where we've run across larger cities with shops that have some magical items, or armorers that have one or two magical items, but these are rare, but always entertainingly role-played shopping expeditions.

And it's alwyas been DM discretion as to what they have, and many items asked for have not been available. The assumption of the existence of a magic item shop or any magical weapon you want in every village blacksmith's hut seems more of an interpretation error than an actual issue of magic item shops being required.

That said, with the change in magic item creation rules(which I believe were sorely needed, as in the campaigns we play there is never enough downtime to create any sort of useful item, and I regret taking the crafting feat I did) seems to have done away with the need for a trade in magical items to exist altogether if everyone can just make them themselves. Not a bad thing, just different.

 

[Ourph]

Who on this thread actually had a "Wal-Magic" in their world, where players could just buy any item in the DMG at will, if they had the cash?

Me. This was a given in almost every 3e game I played. I think the primary reason it was so prevalent is that most of the DMs I played with realized the consequences of NOT allowing that kind of access to equipment meant one or more of the characters usually ended up being decidedly weaker than the rest of the party by mid-level. Often, the randomness of magic item acquisition left the Fighter and the Cleric with lots of useful magic goodies (like armor and weapons they could use) while the Rogue and the Wizard were stuck with a Heward's Handy Haversack and a pack of Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments between them.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I never interpreted this as meaning, "I walk into Swords-R-Us and buy a flaming +2 longsword", which is what I assume most people mean by "magic shop".

I've learned that's not a safe assumption, at least on ENWorld. The biggest argument I've ever had on this forum revolved around the use and meaning of the phrase 'Magic Wal*Mart'. I'm sorry you missed it, it was great.

'Magic shop' can mean:
1) A literal magic item shop.
2) Trade in magic items, ie a metaphorical magic shop.
3) As above but with negative connotations. The writer desires to ridicule magic item trade so uses a phrase that could have a more extreme interpretation. Akin to a straw man argument.

I think the writer of the review is using the term perfectly innocently to mean 'magic item trade'. I think. You can never be sure, which is why it's a crap term to use.

 

[Dausuul]

But the biggest revolution is game design for 4E is the fact that the monsters scale PERFECTLY. And so do the PCs. The amount of damage they deal and can take moves up appropriately so multiple monsters of a lower level is EQUAL in damage output and the amount it can take as a single monster of a higher level.

This is only true if player defenses do not scale as they level. Which may be the case in the absense of magic items (or may not, monsters seem to get 1/2 their level as a defense bonus, do PCs get the same?), but I would not expect it to be the norm. Otherwise the damage output is not the same; the low level monsters will not be able to hit the higher level PCs as often, and thus deal less damage. Damage output depends as much on the attack bonus as it does actual damage dealt.

What makes you think that isn't taken into account?

All Massawyrm said was that multiple monsters of a lower level were equal in damage output/absorption to a single monster of a higher level. Presumably that's after you account for the difference in attack values and defender ACs.

Magic item shops have always existed in the game. 1e had gp values for magic items, and you know what? There were magic item shops in our games. That was back in the early 80's, and I don't think we were alone. If there are gp values for magic items, people will use them.

There's a difference between slapping price tags on magic items, and hardwiring the system to expect PCs with access to Magic Item Wal-Mart. I don't care if the game supports the possibility of magic item shops. I just don't want it to require them as a central element of game balance.

And in any case, the players are going to find items that they don't want, but that others logically will. There is going to be a market for such things. D&D is, and always has been, far too magic-heavy (in its default mode) to pretend that each and every sword +1 is a rare and priceless treasure.

True, but this isn't the modern world. You can't sell your loot on eBay. Particularly in a points-of-light setting with restricted teleportation, it's quite easy to say that the PCs' ability to find a buyer for their plunder is severely limited. Sure, everybody wants a +3 sword, but can you find somebody who wants it bad enough to pay you 9,000 gold pieces for it? Or even 1,000?

 

[Mercule]

And at least in some cases, it wasn't that they wanted to; it was that they felt the rigidity of the "magic item value by level" guidelines of 3E didn't really offer them a good alternative.

This is exactly why I introduced my PCs to a dwarven fence. He had extensive contacts in the kingdom, and beyond. Basically, it was a way to hand-wave yet another 3e balance factor that gave me a headache.

 

[Kraydak]

Well, I will say the reviewer completely fails to convince me on the strength of his arguments.

Table kicking:
4e) Str vs reflex (At a truely massive penalty, given that a table large and sturdy enough to support 2 combatants is going to weigh over 300lbs)
3e) Trip attack (again at a massive penalty.
The only difficulty for a DM in either case? Adjucating the penalty.

CR vs Exp:
As far as I can tell, the Exp system is the CR system under an exponential transform. It is the *same math*, which shouldn't surprise anyone since the CR system worked well (if you realized the CR=PL was a cakewalk).

 

[atom crash]

As long as PCs receive magic items they don't want or will eventually tire of, there will be magic item trade of some sort.

PC1: "Who wants this necklace we found in the owlbear cavern that allows the wearer to understand the chittering of squirrels?"
PC2: "Not me. Just put it in your backpack and forget about it, since the rules specifically forbid us to buy and sell magic items."
PC3: "Why don't we just drop it back on the ground? We're adventurers; we don't need to pick up every single piece of loot we find."
PC4: "Nah, I got a better idea. We'll use it to pay the innkeeper for room and board when we get back to the town. Or we'll use it to pay for our wenching later."