AL VS LFR of 4th and why I'm so disappointed

[aarduini]

Ok,

I'm done. I won't be responding to this thread anymore. I've made my point, and I just hope you guys are listening. If not, I'm sure I'll be back to make my point again.

Sorry about the noise, but there were some things that needed to be said.

As far as shutting this thread down. I've seen a lot worse, but thanks for participating.

BTW - When I was referring to rolling over and showing my belly, I was talking about accepting the rulings without raising my voice about it. Not the lore war between Pauper and I.

Thank you

 

[kalani]

The more likely option would be for a few options to be added to a single story origin.l than blanket mixing of rules. This has been suggested before (by myself no less) and would still allow the admins to prevent broken combos while allowing them to mix things up.

For example - a hypothetical story origin involving genies might add Genasi to the allowed rules for that story origin. Characters of that story origin could then make Genasi + SCAG content. The story origin might even allow non-elf blade singers as an option if it was appropriate (or fun).

I highly doubt the story origin mechanic would be abandoned however as that way lies the path to eventual power creep and broken combos.

 

[aarduini]

For example - a hypothetical story origin involving genies might add Genasi to the allowed rules for that story origin. Characters of that story origin could then make Genasi + SCAG content.

Doesn't the rule prevent this as well?

 

[hoshisabi]

Nah, if the admins decide that they want to add something, it can be added. I don't know the details of their power dynamic, but I imagine they have the ability to write something cool and provide for us.

The key is, they're doing all sorts of cool stuff, so their time is divided amongst all of the other things they do. So, I'd imagine that if a lot of people are all looking for genasi or goliath characters, perhaps it'll move up in priority for them. I think the key is all in how it's asked and all. The "I would like to see the option" as a suggestion... I've definitely seen them take suggestions before.

But, for my example at least, I'd rather Skerrit write another cool mod (which I like his mods), than indulge my silly Halfling blademaster dreams. (Because while I think it's a silly, but fun roleplaying concept... I am totally cool with homegaming it all the same.)

But yeah, I've been pretty happy with how things are progressing, and I'm willing to wait to see the next step in cool stuff added. That's kind of the trick, even if you have to sit there and convince yourself when there's things that bug you about the whole OP experience, you just have to look at the positive side and keep your fingers crossed that it'll keep getting better since this is all supposed to be fun.

 

[Pauper]

For example - a hypothetical story origin involving genies might add Genasi to the allowed rules for that story origin. Characters of that story origin could then make Genasi + SCAG content.

Not sure this is advisable, given that players can currently make characters of any story origin and play those characters in adventures from any season. All this would do is open up the firewall and require anyone who wants to play broken genasi/SCAG combos to create those characters as 'Season X' characters.

This option would make more sense if WotC/the admin team began retiring seasons or removing story origins from Adventurers League -- the damage would already be done by allowing the broken stuff in, but at least that way the door could be closed and later players wouldn't be able to continue to break the campaign once the existing broken characters leveled out of content.

I highly doubt the story origin mechanic would be abandoned however as that way lies the path to eventual power creep and broken combos.

Allowing published material that hasn't been playtested against other published material (such as the SCAG and Elemental Evil Player's Guide) basically defeats the story origin concept. I think that's an unspoken part of the argument -- that once the combinations are allowed, the folks who broke the game a little bit can then argue, 'well, it's broken now, might as well allow everything', and then the game breaks completely. Let's not give those folks false hope that the powers-that-be will eventually give in to that argument.

--
Pauper

 

[kalani]

I think you missed the point in that were such an option to be provided - the admins and campaign staff would only add one or two options to a specific story origin and that those options WOULD be tested with the other options available to that specific story origin.

Instead of wholesale kitchen sinks, the idea would be that In Story origin X - the Genasi (for example) does not create issues/broken combos with any other options available in Story Origin X.

Do we want to add Genasi as an option for that story origin given its thematic relevance?

Given the fact that the admins don't see the products ahead of time - such discussions would need to be made with Chris Lindsey and the other WotC staff as they may know of options for that story origin (in an unreleased product) which might cause an issue if combined with a Genasi.

 

[ArlenFrostlockes]

I asked this once before - SHOW me a broken Genasi/SCAG combo that does not mimic the Human Variant scenarios I provided earlier in this thread. I know that the person above will not see this, I am asking for a proponent of that viewpoint to prove to me that a Genasi/SCAG build breaks the game. Otherwise that particular assertation is just bovine fecal matter.

 

[Pauper]

And if minimzing RL time spend on the mods is the only goal, you and your DM could also just handwave all RP in the normal mods and just roll the combats and skill challenges and get nearly the same result (except that you'd get story awards on top you don't get with MyRe)

True, though part of the frustration is that, because of the thin guidance on how MyRealms mods were meant to be used, the players involved could say that their leveling was done *legally*, using a resource provided by the campaign. Simply going through all the Akanul and Elturgard story area mods and writing down the rewards on a character log would not have been LFR-legal.

I also think this incident helped spark the discussion during LFR (and occasionally revived during AL) about "what is cheating really accomplishing". The consensus seemed to be that cheaters were really only hurting themselves, by skipping over days of content to play just a few hours of it. The argument that such actions harmed the campaign by incentivizing legal-by-the-letter but not legal-by-the-spirit of the rules activities was unpersuasive, at least in part (in my opinion, anyway) because those of us who held that position had to admit that, even if we were right, there was no real mechanism in place to enforce the rules.

The moral high ground may be a nice place to live, but without police, the streets aren't any safer there than anywhere else.

--
Pauper

 

[kalani]

I asked this once before - SHOW me a broken Genasi/SCAG combo that does not mimic the Human Variant scenarios I provided earlier in this thread. I know that the person above will not see this, I am asking for a proponent of that viewpoint to prove to me that a Genasi/SCAG build breaks the game. Otherwise that particular assertation is just bovine fecal matter.

Sigh. As we have said repeatedly - the story origin mechanic predates both Genasi and SCAG. Bringing up a corner case that isn't broken doesn't justify removing the rule because it doesn't address the reasons for the rule:

Story origins exist to prevent POTENTIALLY broken combinations that MAY OCCUR when multiple rules sources are combined.

The fact that no such combinations have occurred YET does not change the fact that they might still occur in the FUTURE. In fact, with each new product released, the odds of this occurring increase exponentially.

Your argument regarding EEPC + SCAG is only relevant to discussions that mixing those two rules sources does not result in broken combinations. It does nothing to prove that mixing either/both rules sources with another (unreleased) rules source won't create a broken combo. For all we know, mixing EEPC races + Curse of Strahd material might create the first broken combo.

 

[Pauper]

I think you missed the point in that were such an option to be provided - the admins and campaign staff would only add one or two options to a specific story origin and that those options WOULD be tested with the other options available to that specific story origin.

I see that. The problem is that, say you say 'genasi can be combined with these parts of the SCAG in the upcoming Yordle's Revenge story origin'. That means, once a broken combo is found in that material (and if it exists, it will be found), everyone who wants to use that combo will be creating a Yordle's Revenge story origin character. Currently nothing stops such a character from being played in any adventure, not just Yordle's Revenge adventures, for which the character is the appropriate level.

I'd be a little calmer in saying, "OK, as an experiment, we're going to allow genasi to combo with the SCAG in Yordle's Revenge, because for this storyline season, Yordle's Revenge characters can only play in Yordle's Revenge adventures." That way, venues that want to avoid the broken characters can simply avoid the storyline adventures in which those characters are legal. I'd feel bad for the people who wrote those adventures and are hoping to get paid on the DMs Guild, but at least some semblance of a firewall would still exist.

Not sure how likely such an experiment would be, though.

--
Pauper

P.S.: Speaking of the DMs Guild, let me give a shout-out to the one person who's purchased my DMs Guild submission, "Paladin Oaths as Bonds". Thanks, dude (or dudette), you rock!

P.P.S.: I used 'Yordle's Revenge' as a hypothetical because WotC doesn't own the IP on the term 'yordle' (that's Riot Games), so such a season isn't likely, and thus won't be confused with other, possibly legal season names.