D&D General Alien Character Mindsets: Elves should be pretty conservative about almost everything.

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
you are still assuming a direct human able to experience a 1000 year life span elves build societies of nothing but said individuals they are likely very good at understanding problems as they are noted for high magic which tends to take a high intellect so genuses who can have great Forethought must be far more common to them than humans, then you add in the fact that these are not normally the product of evolution but made by a demented everchanging paracausal force of nature named Corellon Larethian who is by nature completely insane to us so we are dealing with something utterly incomparable to us.

Except they are bounded by the need to be able to be played by us in an RPG - and so they must be comparable and comprehensible to a great extent.

If they are turned into NPC/monsters only, that constraint can drift quite a bit, right?
 
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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
you are still assuming a direct human able to experience a 1000 year life span elves build societies of nothing but said individuals they are likely very good at understanding problems as they are noted for high magic which tends to take a high intellect so genuses who can have great Forethought must be far more common to them than humans, then you add in the fact that these are not normally the product of evolution but made by a demented everchanging paracausal force of nature named Corellon Larethian who is by nature completely insane to us so we are dealing with something utterly incomparable to us.
See my previous post about how Elves are written by humans to have a largely human mindset, societal structure, language system, etc.

If they were utterly alien then no one would ever, or could ever, roleplay an Elf appropriately.

Or look at @Cadence's response to your post right before I made this one 'cause he sniped me like a -boss-.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
They act like humans. They create societies in the same way as humans. Their language is fungible with English (or any other language it has been translated into) with the same conceptual structures and very few, if any, nontranslatable ideas less so, perhaps, than various human cultures on earth, today... because they were written by humans and their mindset is constrained by human ability to conceive of a mindset.
They do not act like humans or create societies in the same way as humans. They have some similarities, yes, but that doesn't make their society or thought processes the same as human.

A lot of what you are using as your proof are designs from humans that wrote about elves. It can be really hard to imagine and write down what an alien elven society would look like, so these designers have taken the easy path in some instances. A good way to understand the differences is to read the books on elves from 2e and 3e. They take the time to delve deeply into the differences of the elves and how those differences shape their society.

" We do not even need sleep, instead deriving our rest by dwelling within our memories and hopes of the past: the act of Reverie. Some claim this stagnates us and causes us to live in the past. This is not so. We learn for the future by reliving the past.

We are the overlords of the forest, and for good reason. We are intimate with the very soil on which we walk, for our souls are tied to the soil. The ground beneath our feet holds us up, never betraying us to the enemy. Our forests embrace us by hiding us in their branches, ensuring that we do not inadvertently betray ourselves.

We can adapt to any environment anywhere, and there are members of our race in places most have deemed too inhospitable. Although you may not see our brethren, you may rest assured that they are there watching you . . . making sure you do not do anything to offend them.

We are, in short, the guardians and keepers of this world. We do not try to prove that we are naturally better than everyone else. We only know that our abilities far exceed those of most, and our long lives give us the perspective to use these abilities to their fullest extent.

This is not to say that the world should sit at our beck and call. To the contrary, we do what we can to ensure that we do not interfere with its workings too greatly. Indeed, we see our mission as one of restoring the world after you others are done with it. Unlike you people, our lives are not devoted to the idea that we must change the world, for we are fully aware that the world will change itself when it must needs."
 


Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
They do not act like humans or create societies in the same way as humans. They have some similarities, yes, but that doesn't make their society or thought processes the same as human.

A lot of what you are using as your proof are designs from humans that wrote about elves. It can be really hard to imagine and write down what an alien elven society would look like, so these designers have taken the easy path in some instances. A good way to understand the differences is to read the books on elves from 2e and 3e. They take the time to delve deeply into the differences of the elves and how those differences shape their society.

" We do not even need sleep, instead deriving our rest by dwelling within our memories and hopes of the past: the act of Reverie. Some claim this stagnates us and causes us to live in the past. This is not so. We learn for the future by reliving the past.

We are the overlords of the forest, and for good reason. We are intimate with the very soil on which we walk, for our souls are tied to the soil. The ground beneath our feet holds us up, never betraying us to the enemy. Our forests embrace us by hiding us in their branches, ensuring that we do not inadvertently betray ourselves.

We can adapt to any environment anywhere, and there are members of our race in places most have deemed too inhospitable. Although you may not see our brethren, you may rest assured that they are there watching you . . . making sure you do not do anything to offend them.

We are, in short, the guardians and keepers of this world. We do not try to prove that we are naturally better than everyone else. We only know that our abilities far exceed those of most, and our long lives give us the perspective to use these abilities to their fullest extent.

This is not to say that the world should sit at our beck and call. To the contrary, we do what we can to ensure that we do not interfere with its workings too greatly. Indeed, we see our mission as one of restoring the world after you others are done with it. Unlike you people, our lives are not devoted to the idea that we must change the world, for we are fully aware that the world will change itself when it must needs."
Yes. What humans have written about elves.

Because Elves aren't real. Elves don't -actually- have a mindset. They don't have brain chemistry. They don't exist. All we have is the fantasy of what has been written for a given campaign setting.

And based on what we have, which is not "Evidence" but the sum totality of all that exists in relation to elves, they're largely "Human But" because, again, it cannot be stressed any harder, they are inventions of the human mind.

They have kingdoms. With the same positions. With the same ideals of "Royal Bloodlines blessed by the Gods". Divine right to rule and all that. Guardians of the world? Who appointed them to that position? Right. Gods. Of course. Like Arthur was ordained by God to be the keeper and protector of England.

Because we are human. Elves that exist in media, whether comic books, movies, TV shows, Lord of the Rings, whatever else, have the same emotions and ideas and lives that we do, just on a grander time scale. Even when we create mythical magical explanations for how they interact with the world, like being 'One with the Forest' it is always described in human terms and in ways that humans can comprehend because it would be impossible for a human to describe something in terms that are not human and in a way that is incomprehensible to humans because it would be a human saying it.

Now if you wanna -create- an Elven mindset that is more alien, I am 100% down for it. I'm -eager- to see new mindsets that aren't just "Human but"... But.

It won't be an elf. Not in the way they exist in culture or media. It'd be something new you'd slap the name "Elf" on to. And that's not a -bad- thing, just, y'know. Recognize our limits in the face of cultural momentum.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Now if you wanna -create- an Elven mindset that is more alien, I am 100% down for it. I'm -eager- to see new mindsets that aren't just "Human but"... But.

It won't be an elf. Not in the way they exist in culture or media. It'd be something new you'd slap the name "Elf" on to. And that's not a -bad- thing, just, y'know. Recognize our limits in the face of cultural momentum.

Is it too late to grab back the Eladrin name for that?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
They did in 4e. Dragonborn add their Con modifier to their Healing Surge value.


I mean, dogs, wolves, coyotes, and jackals all mature at different rates but form very similar bodies at adulthood, similar enough that some diseases can naturally spread between them.
Bodies, sure. I'm talking about their minds, though. Scientists are fairly sure that humans are as intellectually advanced as we are, in significant part, because of how long we take for our brains to finish cooking.

And I'd say that dragonborn and humans have a much greater difference than wolves and coyotes.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes. What humans have written about elves.

Because Elves aren't real. Elves don't -actually- have a mindset. They don't have brain chemistry. They don't exist. All we have is the fantasy of what has been written for a given campaign setting.

And based on what we have, which is not "Evidence" but the sum totality of all that exists in relation to elves, they're largely "Human But" because, again, it cannot be stressed any harder, they are inventions of the human mind.

They have kingdoms. With the same positions. With the same ideals of "Royal Bloodlines blessed by the Gods". Divine right to rule and all that. Guardians of the world? Who appointed them to that position? Right. Gods. Of course. Like Arthur was ordained by God to be the keeper and protector of England.

Because we are human. Elves that exist in media, whether comic books, movies, TV shows, Lord of the Rings, whatever else, have the same emotions and ideas and lives that we do, just on a grander time scale. Even when we create mythical magical explanations for how they interact with the world, like being 'One with the Forest' it is always described in human terms and in ways that humans can comprehend because it would be impossible for a human to describe something in terms that are not human and in a way that is incomprehensible to humans because it would be a human saying it.

Now if you wanna -create- an Elven mindset that is more alien, I am 100% down for it. I'm -eager- to see new mindsets that aren't just "Human but"... But.

It won't be an elf. Not in the way they exist in culture or media. It'd be something new you'd slap the name "Elf" on to. And that's not a -bad- thing, just, y'know. Recognize our limits in the face of cultural momentum.
I love how out of all of that quote on elves I pulled from D&D, you focused on "Guardians of the world" and ignored everything else. You ignored where it explicitly says that elves are not mired in the past and stagnant, but use what they relive the past to learn for the future. And you ignored where elves don't change the world because the world will change itself, not because they are against change. The conservatism you mention in your OP doesn't exist in D&D elves as a race, though certainly there can be some individuals who are that way.
 
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