Align this character.

Merkuri

First Post
Will said:
Merkuri: You wouldn't consider being castrated 'harm'?

Oh yes, by all means. Unwilling castration of another human(oid) being is harmful and probably evil. I was not arguing that his view of it made it right, just that it was consistent with his internal code and that the "contradiction" wasn't necessarily something that made him any less lawful.
 

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Klaus

First Post
Let's see:

- He would never harm a child or defenseless person. - Good
- He wants to save the world from a tyrannical and thoroughly evil organization. - Undecided. Does he want to replace it with another form of government, or let everyone fend for themselves?
- He'll give the shirt off his back to a stranger if that would help them. - Good
- Staunchly loyal to his friends. - Neutral. Loyalty to one's friends doesn't swing the pendulum.
- Won't keep rewards from quests, preferring to give it back to the town or to another worthy cause. - Lawful. Thinks of the whole before the one.
- Uses torture as his primary questioning technique for prisoners. - Evil.
- Has, on several occasions, beaten someone to death with their own limbs. (This was their punishment for a crime, most likely hurting children or the defenseless.) - Evil.
- A fervent believer in eugenics, he has sterilized many useless or stupid people along his travels. - Evil. And Lawful, as he is doing that to what he sees as the benefit of society.
- Seduces women in every town he comes across, hoping to sire an army along the way (ala Ghengis Khan). - Evil. And Lawful, as he seems to be planning long-term.

So 4 Evils, 3 Lawfuls, 1 Neutral, 1 Undecided and 2 Goods. Seems Lawful Evil to me. One less Evil instace and he'd be LN. So I'll call LE (LN).
 

Merkuri

First Post
Klaus said:
- Staunchly loyal to his friends. - Neutral. Loyalty to one's friends doesn't swing the pendulum.

Really? I thought loyalty was a trait of Lawful characters, just like keeping your word.
 

Trench

First Post
Merkuri said:
Really? I thought loyalty was a trait of Lawful characters, just like keeping your word.

IMC and others I'm playing in, we have bad guys that are very loyal to their friends. They just don't have any problem with killing or screwing over those they DON'T consider friends. And that's where the line lies, IMO.
 

Merkuri

First Post
Trench said:
IMC and others I'm playing in, we have bad guys that are very loyal to their friends. They just don't have any problem with killing or screwing over those they DON'T consider friends. And that's where the line lies, IMO.

Okay, I see that.

Loyal to only friends = neutral
Loyal to all = lawful
Loyal to none = chaotic
Loyal to only non-friends = stupid ;)
 

Kahuna Burger

First Post
Merkuri said:
Really? I thought loyalty was a trait of Lawful characters, just like keeping your word.
No, loyalty to your friends is a neutral trait. I mean, they are your friends. Lack of loyalty even to your supposed friends would be an evil trait, not a chaotic one. A chaotic person might be more willing to lie to a friend for their own good, while a lawful one might be more likely to keep a specific promise that isn't really helping the friend anymore, but remaining loyal to friends, meaning that you stick with the people you care about even when things get rough and not selling them out is merely "not particularly evil". Even some evil characters (like this one) are capable of it.
 

felwar

First Post
A characters good/evil alignment is generally defined by the worst things they do, not the best. Even an evil businessman might donate money to charities and have a personal code of conduct. Just think of your classic movie mobster.

That said, I would think this character falls more in the CN or CE category. He might fall closer to lawful if not for the siring children thing.
 

Merkuri

First Post
felwar said:
He might fall closer to lawful if not for the siring children thing.

Funny, the children thing makes me think "lawful." He has a plan - a very long-term one at that - and is working to bring it to fruition. If he were just in it to "have fun" then that might be more chaotic or neutral.
 

Kahuna Burger

First Post
Merkuri said:
Funny, the children thing makes me think "lawful." He has a plan - a very long-term one at that - and is working to bring it to fruition. If he were just in it to "have fun" then that might be more chaotic or neutral.
It's a weird plan when you stop to think about it, though... what makes him think these children will be loyal to him? Does he have some sort of hidden racial trait and/or magic lineage which will somehow call or bind these children to him when he reaches adulthood? Or is he just THAT full of himself that he figures any child with half his DNA will be strong, noble and inclined to fight the BBEG with him? (given his eugenics, this sort of meglomania might not be so far out there.)
 

Trench

First Post
felwar said:
A characters good/evil alignment is generally defined by the worst things they do, not the best.

I don't think I agree. I think that devaluing that good acts cheapens the evil acts.

felwar said:
That said, I would think this character falls more in the CN or CE category. He might fall closer to lawful if not for the siring children thing.

We don't have specifics on the siring children thing. If he were forcing himself upon women, then that'd be pretty evil. But it was written as "seducing", which isn't inherently evil or even terribly chaotic. You can go to a bar and watch everyone get their mack on to see that.

Again, for me, it's the fact that the seducing and subsequent pregnancies are part of a distinct PLAN rather than simply pleasure that pushes it into Lawful territory for me- although the dishonesty places it on the evil scale.
 

Trench

First Post
Merkuri said:
Funny, the children thing makes me think "lawful." He has a plan - a very long-term one at that - and is working to bring it to fruition. If he were just in it to "have fun" then that might be more chaotic or neutral.

Bingo.
 

Will

First Post
I dunno if I really consider that a Lawful-level plan.

I mean, if I go around killing people because I want fear and respect, am I lawful? Not really... it's just some wacky idea I got in my head.
 

Merkuri

First Post
Kahuna Burger said:
It's a weird plan when you stop to think about it, though...

Whether the plan makes sense or not isn't really relevant. Planning (especially long-term planning) is a quality of lawful people.
 

Kahuna Burger

First Post
Merkuri said:
Whether the plan makes sense or not isn't really relevant. Planning (especially long-term planning) is a quality of lawful people.
I disagree. Lawful people may possibly be more prone to long term planning and are likely to make more detailed plans, but there is nothing in the RAW descriptions of law and chaos that indicated to me that planning itself is a lawful act. A "long term plan" which happens to consist entirely of short term pleasurable activities and may or may not include any real idea of how to make the plan work in the end doesn't point to lawful to me, personally. ;)
 

Klaus

First Post
He may have a way of calling on his scions to form an army later on, through blood-is-thicker bounds (note the Gengis Khan mention).

As for "loyalty to friends", it was already explained above.

Think of alignment as a picture. If you only have one light source, your picture is "flat". But add a tenous backlighting, and the image "pops up" as tridimensional. With alignment it's the same. If you have an Evil character with only Evil traits, it becomes pastiche. Add in a Good trait or two, and the character becomes interesting and tridimensional.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
theredrobedwizard said:
So, what's the verdict? I've heard every alignment offered up as an answer, so I'm eager to see what the bright minds of EN World have to say.

-TRRW

Lawful Evil, bordering on Lawful Neutral. But with good intentions! Not that good intentions have much to do with how evil someone really is for their actual actions.

I think he may be bipolar or suffering from multiple personality syndrome, though, and just not realizing it. The character, I mean. Players can run some rather odd, anachronistic characters.....
 

Arkhandus

First Post
Kahuna Burger said:
I disagree. Lawful people may possibly be more prone to long term planning and are likely to make more detailed plans, but there is nothing in the RAW descriptions of law and chaos that indicated to me that planning itself is a lawful act.

The guy is Lawful mainly because of his personal code and consistent behavior, anyway, not from any kind of plans he may have.

He fits kind of well into the Lawful Evil description given in the 3.0 PHB.
 

Tarek

Explorer
Conan had a strong personal code. Conan was not lawful; he routinely ignored the laws of the lands he was in.

Again, I have to put this out there: A personal code of ethics and conduct does not necessarily mean that the person is Lawful.
 

Merkuri

First Post
Tarek said:
Again, I have to put this out there: A personal code of ethics and conduct does not necessarily mean that the person is Lawful.

I disagree. I think a personal code of ethics and conduct is exactly what makes one Lawful, or at least it is more Lawful than obeying the laws of the country you are in. After all, would you expect a paladin to obey the laws of an evil nation, things that included mandatory whipping of servants if they didn't bow when you walked past?

I like to think of the different alignments as summations of a person's character. They're very internal things. They often come out in the character's behavior, but it's possible to hold back and act against your alignment. Kinda like how alcoholics can choose not to drink, but they'll always be alcoholics on the inside.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
- He would never harm a child or defenseless person. neutral
- He wants to save the world from a tyrannical and thoroughly evil organization. very mildly chaotic
- He'll give the shirt off his back to a stranger if that would help them. good
- Staunchly loyal to his friends. chaotic -- lawful would be loyalty to an organization
- Won't keep rewards from quests, preferring to give it back to the town or to another worthy cause. good
- Uses torture as his primary questioning technique for prisoners. evil
- Has, on several occasions, beaten someone to death with their own limbs. (This was their punishment for a crime, most likely hurting children or the defenseless.) awesome -- killing bad guys is neither good nor evil
- A fervent believer in eugenics, he has sterilized many useless or stupid people along his travels. chaotic -- values individuals rather than organizations
- Seduces women in every town he comes across, hoping to sire an army along the way (ala Ghengis Khan). chaotic -- seeks to create a series of individuals rather than an organization

So:
Good +2
Evil +1
Lawful +0
Chaotic +3.1
Awesome +1

Verdict: Chaotic Neutral with Good and Awesome tendencies

Cheers, -- N
 

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