Alignment change - Playing Evil

I think the best approach to characters is to create one you are comfortable with, and agree with your DM on what alignment might best describe them. Then, alignment rarely becomes an issue, as you are not focused on trying to play out one you may or may not have a firm idea of. The bottom line is that alignment is the worst (and least sophisticated) system for describing human ethics I have ever seen, so good luck getting it to enhance a game; I have always found it has the opposite impact, being a nuisance while adding nothing positive to the game.
So, if you have not set out to play a character that would best be described as “chaotic evil”, I would suggest not doing so. What would be the point? Keeping this character going even though they are now hugely, and horribly different from what you want to play? It seems like an exercise in self-annoyance to me!
Perhaps you could start right away on moving their alignment to Chaotic Neutral as something to focus on, that might make the character more enjoyable for you? Even so, you are likely to just be bogged down in the same issues as this thread- “What do I have to do to meet my alignment is this situation?”
Alignment should not be such a conscious part of the game. What will the punishment be if you cannot play this alignment, anyway? Alignment change? :-)
 

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Here is a few *simple* examples of how I see Good/Neutral/Evil

Good = Will help a person in need, even if it meant sacrificing something (items, money, his life).

Neutral = Will help a person in need, but not at his own expense.

Evil = Might help a person in need if he stands to gain something from it. Otherwise, they'd either leave the person in despair OR might worsen their situation, if it suits them.

So the CE Wizard might stick around with the party, if he stands to gain something from them. If one of them is in danger, he'd sooner abandon them and save his own neck, unless he has something to gain from saving him.

The same with the Lawful / Chaotic aspect. A Lawful person would keep their word, so long as they could help it. A Chaotic person would care less. You can swear loyalty to your group all you want, that doesn't mean you are suddenly Lawful. After all, how is a Chaotic person to lie and break their word if they can not first give their word?
 

A CE enchanter *shudder*

Just some random thoughts. One likely responce of going from LN to CE for an enchanter might be a reduction in inhabition or restraint. Dominating by power or force I think is a pretty common trait to CE. Now this doesn't mean stupidity, but where he might have paused to consider the moral implications of charming someone before, I doubt he would even hesitate now. Getting his way would seem paramount. I doubt he would give a toss about advancing the cause of evil, well unless it suited him. Deception and dishonesty would become his weapons of choice. Being chaotic, I doubt he would submit to others without them showing great prowess.
 

An interesting idea might be to keep some seeds of his former personality. Make him selfish, but why not make him selfish on behalf of the group? Make him a Chaotic Evil character with some kind of twisted loyalty to his good aligned friends. Picture the scene: Party are coming into town late at night, and someone tries to attack the group. One party member is injured. So the PC burns down the village. Picture the sheer glee on his face as he hits a running commoner in the back with a lightning bolt. He burns down the village, laughs in joy for a minute or five, fireballs the rubble, and returns to the party as if nothing has happened. So it'd be like an insane Chaotic Neutral character.:D
 

<speaking of people who perform evil acts>
If either of the above two characters also did their best to keep their image in their community up - rescuing kittens, defeating invading armies, or any other thing that helps the community with their own intrests in mind - would that make them any less evil? No malice, no benevolence - just a complete lack of any type of moral restraint in what they'd do to gain power, or anything else. To me, that's evil.
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Concepts like "evil" or "good" really only have any practical application when we talk about >actions<, not so much intent. A person can, for example, think "evil" thoughts without per se being evil (or good thoughts without being good). So, the question becomes just what is the ratio of good to netural to evil actions that the individual takes. Find that ratio and you get a handy, general indication of their alignment.

Clearly anyone of any alignment can be "selfish", the question is how is it that they demonstrate that selfishness. A "merely" selfish person -- someone who is just as willing to perform good acts as evil acts to reach his aims -- would be some sort of flavor of neutral (mind you, not all neutral characters would be like this). If the selfish person habitually attempts to reach his selfish aims through evil acts then he is evil. But, in such a case the individual wouldn't >just< be acting in his own best interest as the evil acts he commits are quite likely to be ultimately self-defeating. His own evil ways would be interfering with his own selfish aims to one extent or another.

That's what I see as the fundamental difference.
 

An evil character who keeps agreements, is loyal to his comrades, etc. is a lawful evil character, not chaotic evil. Lawful is to be ordered, and to honor rules and restrictions, even if you use them to selfish or evil ends (such as extracting a vow from a paladin under false pretenses). Chaotic is to give such things no value. Chaotic characters are not bound to keep thier word unless it suits them on the particular day. Nor does authority have any special meaning to them.

I can imagine playing a lawful evil PC in a good party. One need merely have an agreement with the party that the evil PC will honor and the other good PCs are comfortable with. I find it much more difficult to envision a chaotic evil PC working out
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What you are describing is what I call "Chaotic Dumb" -- a person who is so out-of-control that they are the own worst enemy. Such a villain wouldn't last 5 minutes unless he had a lot of power and even then his life-expectancy is rather low. It also makes for a villain would is little more than a stereotype. For example, how could subtle demonic creatures like Succubae exist and be effective when they would otherwise give themselves away so quickly? Meanwhile, by comparison, Lawful Evil has a wide range of possible playing approaches. One is a dead end; one is really the only sort of alignment that makes sense for a long-term villain.

This is me illustrates the long term BIAS that has existed toward Chaotic alignments and in favor of Lawful ones since the inception of the alignment system. Basically, I see it as a likely manifestation of the creators' own biases writ large.

As is implied in the description and from what can be seen in similar personality patterns in real life Lawful characters define "structure" in their lives primarily using >external< factors such as laws and social customs. They tend to work toward living out these collective assumptions in a way that verifies and gives them meaning. For example, take a look at the military -- it operates under a set of "rules" that every soldier is expected to obey. Those rules exist outside an individual's own personal determination and dovetail nicely with social and cultural expectations. To a Lawful person the law exists because people give it life by abiding its dictates.

Now, to a Lawful person those people at the other end of the spectrum (which we'll call here "chaotic") seem to not have any structure to their lives. They may in fact seem to flaunt social expectation and otherwise act according to their own (apparently idiosyncratic) whims. This is where I see the Lawful bias to the alignment system -- "Chaotic" is relegated to little more than having a lack of self-restraint and/or social pride. That view is the >biased< way Lawful individuals in real life tend to pigeonhole those on the other end of the scale.

However, in truth those on the other end of the scale are apt in their own way to have just as much or little self-restraint as those who are Lawful. The difference comes in how Chaotic individuals see structure in their lives -- NOT primarily according to social and legal expectation, but rather the determination of their own >individual< understanding of the intrinsic rights and worth of other individuals. This may sound selfish or closed-minded, but again this approach can be just as good or bad in that regard as the Lawful approach.

For example, in a slavery society Lawful characters (who may not otherwise like slavery) would tend to support the institution primarily because that is the way of things. Mess with one fundamental aspect of the system and you may damage it all. However, a Chaotic (good in this case) person would likely denounce the process or at least work against it because to his mind what matters are the intrinsic rights of the individual -- even a slave -- rights that ultimately make him no more or less of value than those in charge.

A Chaotic person can likewise live a "structured" life, but that structure will come primarily from his own internally developed code of ethics -- that is, what his own experience has taught him -- rather than investing in some group ideal. As such they should be just as capable of learning supposed "lawful" abilities like those of a Monk as anyone. In fact, many if not most of the "heroes" in the movies who possess such "monk-like" abilities are clearly Chaotic in their alignment (Neo from the Matrix movies being one classic example).

I can illustrate the effects of the anti-chaotic bias in the alignment system by turning everything around and describing how it would be if the system was biased against Lawfulness. In that sort of system Lawful characters would be little more than stooges or willing accomplices to the prevailing social order -- they would have, in effect, given over any control of their lives to the directives of the state. By comparison, Chaotic individuals would have retained their abilities of self-determination and would be able to see through the lies and illusions of the ruling elite.

A more balanced approach to Lawful/Chaotic as a have talked about here would make both points-of-view equally valid, both possessing their strong and weak points. It would do away with the Lawful bias of the system, illustrate that Chaotic means more than simply having no or little self-control, and make the system more in keeping with real life. And, in fact, the basis for this view is there already in the rules; it just seems that the Lawful bias regularly creeps in.
 


I disagree with you. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Reactions like this are why the problem still persists (IMHO). After all, is the point of a role-playing game to allow for a means of reproducing "life" (even in a fantasy or fantastical setting) or just to perpetuate social biases? If the bias in this case was that, say, all women were weak and couldn't hack fighting classes would that be so casually dismissed? There really isn't any practical difference.
 

The core canon of most CE is that there is only one thing that ever matters- you.

You will always do what is in your self-interest, though part of this is bearing in mind possible punishment. So you will not cut down a peasant in a crowded marketplace. Here, however, is the one that people get confused about- you will not cut down a peasant even in a quiet alley, unless you benefit from it.

If you can kill and rob him, then do it.
If you like killing people, then do it.
If you are bored and want some excitement, then do it.
If you like sowing misery and want to traumatise his family because it gives you a perverse thrill, then do it.

If you, however, do not gain some form of gratification, then there is no need to. CE is the total pursual of personal gain, unfettered by either moral/ethical codes or social/legal obligations. If it makes you happy, then go ahead.
 

Ranillon said:
I disagree with you. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Reactions like this are why the problem still persists (IMHO). After all, is the point of a role-playing game to allow for a means of reproducing "life" (even in a fantasy or fantastical setting) or just to perpetuate social biases? If the bias in this case was that, say, all women were weak and couldn't hack fighting classes would that be so casually dismissed? There really isn't any practical difference.
I don't think there is a bias. You believe there is. My definition of what the alignments mean is different from yours. The reason I want to let it drop is because, having seen alignment discussions before, I have not once seen anyone converted to another's view. People will see alignment as they want to see it. That being said, I don't want to get involved in a discussion that will ultimately go nowhere. I made a small statement about how I feel re: alignment, and that's it.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you didn't suggest that my disagreeing with you regarding the definition of alignment is somehow tantamount to sexism. It's a ridiculous claim, and insulting.
 

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