Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
ruleslawyer said:
It makes him Chaotic (rather than Neutral on the L-C axis).
Alignment: Han Solo is Neutral?
- Thread starter Mighty Veil
- Start date
It makes him Chaotic (rather than Neutral on the L-C axis).
LightPhoenix
First Post
Celebrim said:
Being ornery, it's entirely possible this is so because Han is a hero in the movies, and so they made him look good in the books. In the original movies, Han definitely undergoes an alignment change - in fact, I'd say it's one of the most clear examples of alignment shift out there.
I would agree that Han starts out TN - he's not totally without a sense of honor, and definitely operates within a system, albeit an illegal one. He's just trying to do right by the people he cares about. As Leia points out, that happens to be at the start just him and Chewie, and perhaps Luke. Over the original movies, he goes from TN to NG pretty clearly, fighting for the rebellion and even volunteering to go on dangerous missions.
Moon-Lancer
First Post
he shot first. So it wasent that act that makes him neutral, but it does show what his character is about, up to that point. It establishes him as neutral (rather them making him neutral). Luke & Leia were catalysts that forced him to change for the better.
Celebrim
Legend
LightPhoenix said:
Oh, sure that's possible. But, its entirely possible that it is not. So going either way there doesn't get us much.
???
I don't even think it is an alignment shift, much less a good example of one. A better example of an alignment shift in the movies - and there are alot of good fall and redemption stories out there, its one of the most common themes in literature - is 'An Officer and a Gentlemen'. But see also 'Sgt. York', 'Schindler's List', and I could probably go on and on if I sat and thought about it.
The problem with Han making an alignment shift is we don't really see him doing anything bad to begin with. He has a change of heart, but he does so because the people around him appeal to his underlying since of justice and goodness. I don't consider lifting someone out of a temporary bout of cynacism to be a full alignment change. Where I Han's DM, I'd expect CG on his character sheet and would be seeing a hero being slowly beaten down by the world. Han's definately at a low point. He took the work from Jabba, which was evil, and which he shouldn't have done. But one mistake doesn't make for an alignment change. He's trying to recover from the consequences of that mistake and his desparation is making him forget who he is - that outraged young man who rescued a Wookie from slavery because he couldn't stand by and see injustice done. But he's not yet fallen. He still cares, however much he's trying not to.
There is a very strong indication that Chewie's alignment is Lawful Good - that Chewie's friendship with Han begins with the repayment of a life debt that Chewie's moral code requires of him. But clearly Chewie doesn't see Han as a casual murderer and thief or anything else which might muddle his goodness, because Chewie's friendship with Han is real and that's not something a honor code can require of you. More than that, I would expect in a LG honor code thier to be a clause which cancels the debt if the person you are indebted to does something truly dishonorable. If Han's alignment is as far from Chewie's as CN, I wouldn't expect the friendship to be more strained than it is.
It really doesn't take that much prompting from Chewie and Luke to get Han to listen to his heart and join the rebellion. I don't see an alignment change here.
Cthulhudrew
First Post
ruleslawyer said:
Just because the Empire is a tyranny doesn't mean that anyone flouting its laws is automatically good.
HAN: I've outrun Imperial starships, not the local bulk-cruisers, mind you. I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you, old man. What's the cargo?
BEN: Only passengers. Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.
HAN: What is it? Some kind of local trouble?
BEN: Let's just say we'd like to avoid any Imperial entanglements.
HAN: Well, that's the trick, isn't it? And it's going to cost you something extra. Ten thousand in advance.
"No questions asked." Since he doesn't seem too particularly concerned about precisely what it is he's being contracted to smuggle, just so long as he stays away from the Empire's clutches, I'd say Han seems more Neutrally inclined than Good.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Greedo never shot first. Anyone who says otherwise is a filthy liar who will be shoved headfirst into a pile of bantha poop.
He takes the job of ferrying Ben and Luke to Alderran, regardless of who they are, because of a promise of payment.Umbran said:
His actions during the rescue of the Princess are motivated by the reward he's been promised; he says so himself.
By the end of the movie, he is packing up to leave with his promised reward. He shifts when he comes out of nowhere to shoot Vader & Wingmen out of the sky. There are plenty of actions, and plenty of lines of his, to imply he starts with a Neutral alignment on the G-E axis.
This shows that Leia understands that Han had a capacity for Good, even if he never exercised it before.Leia said:
Man in the Funny Hat
Hero
We do not know enough about Han and his behavior PRIOR to his first appearance to reliably assign him an alignment. At best we can ASSuME some things based on what he says regarding his philosphies to Ben, Luke, and Leia in Episode IV, but none of the movies EVER delve into Han's past beyond his involvement with Jabba which says almost nothing about him. As Umbran noted he TALKS very neutralish, but TALK is not what determines alignment. Actions determine alignment.
When introduced to Han we learn that he is a smuggler. He's someone who makes his living operating outside the law inside of a fascist dictatorship (the Empire) just reaching the height of its power. Then, when Han shoots Greedo (whether shooting first or not) it IS self-defense. Greedo has a gun pointed at him and in an unambiguous conversation Greedo makes it clear that HE intends to kill Han - and has been looking forward to it - even if it is not what JABBA wanted Greedo to do. But although it's a dramatic choice of action to shoot Greedo first on the sly under the table it CANNOT show a trend yet.
The next real moral/ethical choice that Han gets to make is when Luke has to promise him money to get him to help rescue Leia. Now this seems quite selfish (and neutral) but we ARE talking about a guy who, given the circles he's running around in, HAS to put up a very neutral, selfish front lest he be thought weak and unreliable. And remember that for a scoundrel and smuggler, and even for all his bragging - HE'S NOT VERY GOOD AT IT. Obi Wan's reactions to him in the cantina tend to support this, as if he's sensing how Good-aligned he really is under his blustering facade.
Han owes Jabba a ton of money. Though it is never stated just how much he owes, it can be inferred that the 17,000 might "really save his neck" but it won't necessarily fully square with Jabba what he owes. In the conversation with Greedo the lost shipment that is mentioned could be where the total of the debt comes from, but given the overall context it seems FAR more likely that this is just the latest in a string of incidents that have left him further and further in debt to Jabba.
So, when Han hears about the Princess his reluctance to get involved can still be seen as ranging from neutral to NG or CG - still not enough evidence of a pattern of actions to base a reliable alignment estimation upon. But he NEEDS that money, and if it's not the only motivation he has for helping at that point it certainly helps him give in to his nicer tendencies. Also, Obi Wan gave him 2000 up front and promised 15,000. That shows either that Han is just that desperate or that he's NOT the hard-assed Neutral he pretends to be and is thus willing to take Obi Wan at his word. Now aboard the Death Star, Luke promises "more wealth than you can imagine". Han HAS to know, given that he's currently trapped on this fascist-dictatorship-operated space station large enough to be mistaken for a FREAKIN MOON, that living to see any of this fantasy money is NOT a real reason to get motivated to rescue princesses. He uses the money as a convenient excuse to maintain his persona and yet do what he senses is the right thing - fight the Empire, save the girl.
The real crisis of conscience for Han is at the rebel base when he gets his reward. Although he's now FREE of the underworld life that he'd gotten himself into he's likely been too long in the habit of acting Neutral or CN (and thus effectively being Neutral/CN) to make the alignment shift yet. But it's not long before he changes his mind - and possibly his alignment - and comes back to help save the day.
NOW, at THIS point, you can start to throw alignments on him. He's not neutral - even if he once was. He's clearly shifted towards good (or established that he's always been so, even if he's had to pretend otherwise), though his old hard-dying Neutral behaviors for appearances sake keep him NG or CG. In Empire Strikes Back he's VOLUNTARILY going to go back to pay off Jabba the Hut. He says because if not he'll be a dead man, but he's not a criminal anymore. Why should he feel obligated to pay a debt to a criminal who might indeed want to have him killed rather than have the money at this point? He wants to pay Jabba because Han has a sense of honor and honesty that he cannot continue to deny. An obligation willingly accepted must be fulfilled. No matter what his motivations were at the time he incurred the debt his alignment NOW will not allow him to try to welch on it - and he could just as easily borrow an x-wing and a few troops and put an end to it and the Rebels might well GIVE them to him if he asked. By the time of Return of the Jedi those neutral tendencies are all but entirely eliminated and he's easily seen as LG - he's not even taking it for granted that his faithful companion Chewbacca will just go along with whatever dangers he's getting himself into.
YMMV
When introduced to Han we learn that he is a smuggler. He's someone who makes his living operating outside the law inside of a fascist dictatorship (the Empire) just reaching the height of its power. Then, when Han shoots Greedo (whether shooting first or not) it IS self-defense. Greedo has a gun pointed at him and in an unambiguous conversation Greedo makes it clear that HE intends to kill Han - and has been looking forward to it - even if it is not what JABBA wanted Greedo to do. But although it's a dramatic choice of action to shoot Greedo first on the sly under the table it CANNOT show a trend yet.
The next real moral/ethical choice that Han gets to make is when Luke has to promise him money to get him to help rescue Leia. Now this seems quite selfish (and neutral) but we ARE talking about a guy who, given the circles he's running around in, HAS to put up a very neutral, selfish front lest he be thought weak and unreliable. And remember that for a scoundrel and smuggler, and even for all his bragging - HE'S NOT VERY GOOD AT IT. Obi Wan's reactions to him in the cantina tend to support this, as if he's sensing how Good-aligned he really is under his blustering facade.
Han owes Jabba a ton of money. Though it is never stated just how much he owes, it can be inferred that the 17,000 might "really save his neck" but it won't necessarily fully square with Jabba what he owes. In the conversation with Greedo the lost shipment that is mentioned could be where the total of the debt comes from, but given the overall context it seems FAR more likely that this is just the latest in a string of incidents that have left him further and further in debt to Jabba.
So, when Han hears about the Princess his reluctance to get involved can still be seen as ranging from neutral to NG or CG - still not enough evidence of a pattern of actions to base a reliable alignment estimation upon. But he NEEDS that money, and if it's not the only motivation he has for helping at that point it certainly helps him give in to his nicer tendencies. Also, Obi Wan gave him 2000 up front and promised 15,000. That shows either that Han is just that desperate or that he's NOT the hard-assed Neutral he pretends to be and is thus willing to take Obi Wan at his word. Now aboard the Death Star, Luke promises "more wealth than you can imagine". Han HAS to know, given that he's currently trapped on this fascist-dictatorship-operated space station large enough to be mistaken for a FREAKIN MOON, that living to see any of this fantasy money is NOT a real reason to get motivated to rescue princesses. He uses the money as a convenient excuse to maintain his persona and yet do what he senses is the right thing - fight the Empire, save the girl.
The real crisis of conscience for Han is at the rebel base when he gets his reward. Although he's now FREE of the underworld life that he'd gotten himself into he's likely been too long in the habit of acting Neutral or CN (and thus effectively being Neutral/CN) to make the alignment shift yet. But it's not long before he changes his mind - and possibly his alignment - and comes back to help save the day.
NOW, at THIS point, you can start to throw alignments on him. He's not neutral - even if he once was. He's clearly shifted towards good (or established that he's always been so, even if he's had to pretend otherwise), though his old hard-dying Neutral behaviors for appearances sake keep him NG or CG. In Empire Strikes Back he's VOLUNTARILY going to go back to pay off Jabba the Hut. He says because if not he'll be a dead man, but he's not a criminal anymore. Why should he feel obligated to pay a debt to a criminal who might indeed want to have him killed rather than have the money at this point? He wants to pay Jabba because Han has a sense of honor and honesty that he cannot continue to deny. An obligation willingly accepted must be fulfilled. No matter what his motivations were at the time he incurred the debt his alignment NOW will not allow him to try to welch on it - and he could just as easily borrow an x-wing and a few troops and put an end to it and the Rebels might well GIVE them to him if he asked. By the time of Return of the Jedi those neutral tendencies are all but entirely eliminated and he's easily seen as LG - he's not even taking it for granted that his faithful companion Chewbacca will just go along with whatever dangers he's getting himself into.
YMMV
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