Alignment: Han Solo is Neutral?

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Why would you say he's no good at it? Because he owes a debt?

Not just owes a debt - he owes a LARGE debt. Enough to get whacked over - or close to it. Greedo was overstepping his authority when he intended to kill Han but his charter with Ben and Luke is his last chance. We just don't know enough about this entire "Imperial Cruiser" incident, the debt, or ANYTHING about Hans past beyond this. I was suggesting that it's possible that Han has for one reason or another failed at a succession of smuggling operations for Jabba. Han presents himself as a terrific smuggler. In the extended scenes Jabba says he's "the best". But IF that's really true and not just blowing smoke then why whack Han over ONE failure? Over a SINGLE debt, even if it's a large one? My understanding here is that Han is definitely on the outs with Jabba because he's just not the badass criminal and smuggler he says he is. He's a good pilot with a good ship but he's NOT the crook he wants people to think he is. That's what I mean when I say he's not very good at it.

Maybe because, "A death mark is not an easy thing to live with." I always figured he went to pay Jabba back because, "the bounty hunter on Oord Mandel changed [his] mind", and not because of any breach of honor. He just wants to stop getting shot at.

But again - he's now running with a LARGE, well-organized rebellion. He could "disappear" into that organization if he wanted to. He doesn't have to show his face anywhere that it can be recognized and shot at. He also has access to GOBS of military hardware. He could "borrow" some of it for a while, or because they think so much of him he could even ask for it and they might even give it to him - then KILL Jabba, the big, disgusting vile crime boss, and be seen as doing the universe a favor, while also scratching his debts.

Instead he does the "honorable" thing, stands up to his obligations - even those incurred working as a crook for a bigger crook - and faces the music. This is hardly Neutral behavior.

And, although he TALKS like he wants to be seen as a master criminal, he IS facing down Imperial forces, not local law enforcement (as he notes to Ben and Luke in the cantina) - at least for that last operation that went bad. He brags about outrunning Imperial starships. This suggests to me that he's less a criminal already than he is someone operating against the Empire. But again, we just don't know enough to read too much into it one way or another.

My mileage most certainly does vary on this point. Han? Lawful Good? Why? Becasue he's considerate to his friends? Because he joins an organized rebellion?

Not at the end of Episode IV - at the end of Episode VI. I don't see ANY chaotic and neutral behavior in ESB and RotJ, I see lawful and good behavior. The last really neutral thing he does COULD be leaving the rebellion temporarily for his own "selfish" reasons of taking care of this price on his head. Depends on how you really want to interpret that. But it doesn't much matter. He's still moving in a LG direction and by the end of the series I don't see him doing ANYTHING that suggests he's anything but LG - the direction he started moving at the end of ANH.

 

[hamishspence]

True, the movies trump the books

Sometimes even the books trump the books: some dates have been revised since first use. Like the date of the devastation of Honoghr the Noghri planet. But, LucasArts has numerous times used material from the books for computer #####, most notably Star Wars Supremacy.

Or, statements made in earlier movies /novelisations are contradicted in Episodes 1 2 3. E.g. originally Owen Lars was Ben's brother not Anakins stepbrother. Leia says of her mother that she can remember "just a little bit: she died when I was very young" Though she might be thinking of Mrs Bail Organa.
There are some humourous references on the subject of "How Leia Knows what Padme Looked like" and "Why Ben Says Anakin Wanted Luke to have His Saber" in Star Wars magazine.

Generally the books are consistent with each other, however.

On the subject of Captain Solo: even the Rebel dawn series doesn't actually show WHAT happened at the academy: it takes place between books 1 and 2

 

[Felix]

Not just owes a debt - he owes a LARGE debt. Enough to get whacked over - or close to it. Greedo was overstepping his authority when he intended to kill Han but his charter with Ben and Luke is his last chance.

Greedo was busy being Evil, so I suspect that while there may have been a bounty out for Han's life, Jabba would have been just as happy letting Han live and recovering the money. So it may have not been his "last chance", but rather "it could really save [his] ass".

We just don't know enough about this entire "Imperial Cruiser" incident, the debt, or ANYTHING about Hans past beyond this.

Quite. But we know that he dumped an expensive shipment for Jabba, and that Jabba trusted him with the contract.

I was suggesting that it's possible that Han has for one reason or another failed at a succession of smuggling operations for Jabba. Han presents himself as a terrific smuggler. In the extended scenes Jabba says he's "the best". But IF that's really true and not just blowing smoke then why whack Han over ONE failure? Over a SINGLE debt, even if it's a large one?

I forget how much time passed between A New Hope and ESB, but it was substantial; enough time to establish a base on Hoth and run into a bounty hunter on Oord Mandel. Possibly Jabba, having heard that Han took a charter that would pay his debt and became a hero of Yavin IV (word may have gotten back), grew impatient that his menace was being dismissed by Han, and needed to make an example of him. Jabba does put Han up in his audience chamber as an example; what message does this send to other smugglers? Is that message something Jabba would want his "employees" to pay attention to? Is it a more effective message if Han was once a favored smuggler, or a failed one?

But again - he's now running with a LARGE, well-organized rebellion. He could "disappear" into that organization if he wanted to.

Was he not found on Oord Mandel while he was disappeared into the rebellion?

He also has access to GOBS of military hardware. He could "borrow" some of it for a while, or because they think so much of him he could even ask for it and they might even give it to him - then KILL Jabba, the big, disgusting vile crime boss, and be seen as doing the universe a favor, while also scratching his debts.

The rebellion is struggling against the Empire; would they want to start a second front with a gangster organization that employs hitmen who would be happy to find a reason to get paid by the Empire to kill the rebels?

Instead he does the "honorable" thing, stands up to his obligations - even those incurred working as a crook for a bigger crook - and faces the music. This is hardly Neutral behavior.

Han is being shot at, and he doesn't know where the next shot is going to come from. That, says Han, is the reason he needs to pay off Jabba: he has to get clear with the money that he has had since Yavin. (He's been avoiding paying Jabba off and then linking back up with the rebellion, which with such a fast ship would be possible.)

And if it is hardly Neutral behavior, is it Lawful behavior to pay a loanshark back after he's sent his knuckle-breakers after you a few times?

He brags about outrunning Imperial starships. This suggests to me that he's less a criminal already than he is someone operating against the Empire. But again, we just don't know enough to read too much into it one way or another.

He claims to be fast. His criminality is his ability to run away: something a smuggler should be good at. From his fast ship (and it is), to his skill at flying it through an asteroid field, to using his knowledge of Imperial procedure to make it seem like he disappeared, it doesn't seem like he lacks the equipment, ability, or cleverness to be a good smuggler.

Not at the end of Episode IV - at the end of Episode VI. I don't see ANY chaotic and neutral behavior in ESB and RotJ, I see lawful and good behavior. The last really neutral thing he does COULD be leaving the rebellion temporarily for his own "selfish" reasons of taking care of this price on his head. Depends on how you really want to interpret that. But it doesn't much matter. He's still moving in a LG direction and by the end of the series I don't see him doing ANYTHING that suggests he's anything but LG - the direction he started moving at the end of ANH.

Ah, you meant at the end of the series. Absolutely, he's moving towards Good.

He moves towards lawful only if it is impossible for a Chaotic character to find motivations to assist organizations without those motivations being Lawful in nature. I believe that Chaotic people can indeed organize, although they tend to do it less so than Lawful folks, and that Chaotic organizations can exist.

What actions in particular would you cite as Lawful, that could also not be motivated by the desire to do Good and help his friends?

 

[Wolfwood2]

- A smuggler, someone who makes aliving out of breaking the law.

At best, non-Lawful, not non-Good, especially when considering the nature of the entity promulgating the laws.

Sure it's non-good. Not evil, of course, but it there's nothing good about it either. It's like explaining that someone's profession is to be a mining engineer. It doesn't mean he's not good, but you can say that being a mining engineer is not a profession terribly oriented towards protecting the innocent and thwarting evil, so if he's being good he's probably doing it in off-hours.

Someone who works for well-known and ruthless crime bosses (namely, Jabba).

Except, of course, that he's on the outs with Jabba.

Sure, over a business matter. He didn't have a problem taking a job with Jabba for moral reasons.

Saving his life would be self-interest anyway. Again, not relevant on the good and evil axis. Moreover, it's absolutely not clear that Chewie's life is in danger because of this bounty thing. Han refers to "my dead body"; "my neck"; etc.

Here's the thing. If most of someone's actions are made up of things that are not relevant on the good and evil axis, then that means that person is probably neutral. If that person were good, they would be going around doing good things. The fact that they have no desire to do so, but at the same time have compunctions against evil, is what neutral is all about.