Alignment in the movie "Man on Fire"

[John Morrow]

the justice system *should* be lawful neutral. thats what its there for.

If you want a Good society, I disagree. The justice system for a Good society should be Lawful Good. A Lawful Neutal justice system is indifferent to whether the people it prosecutes and the people it protects are Good or Evil. That means that it can be used to persecute the Good and protect the Evil. So if you want a Neutral society, your justice system should be Lawful Neutral. If you want a Good society, then your justice system should be Lawful Good. A Lawful Neutral justice system only cares if something is legal and it's not difficult to see examples of how that view of justice can be abused by Evil people. A Lawful Good justice system cares if something is right as well as whether it is legal or not.

 

[John Morrow]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when I read that. I just can't see an argument for why the legal system should represent any other aligment BUT LN.

So you think that a justice system should be indifferent to Good and Evil?

 

[Altalazar]

So you think that a justice system should be indifferent to Good and Evil?

I think by definition it can't be - Justice, to me, is LG.

If it is LN, it isn't a Justice system, merely a Legal system.

And the main reason torture is outlawed, and should be outlawed, is that it is almost always about sadistic joy of inflicting pain, not about information - and the reason this is so is simple: Torture simply DOES NOT WORK as a way to get information. It never has and it never will. People being tortured do one thing only: when they break, they will tell the torturer EXACTLY what he wants to hear.

So it is totally useless as a means of getting information. So given that it has no utility, the only reason left to do it is to get pleasure from it - and that is evil.

Now, in "movie logic" torture works, so Creasy can do it and be LG. But in the real world, it doesn't, so it is always evil.

 

[John Morrow]

I think by definition it can't be - Justice, to me, is LG.

If it is LN, it isn't a Justice system, merely a Legal system.

Well put. I don't think it can be put any better than that.

 

[Telas]

Everything in this post is my opinion. *** SPOILER ALERT *** Spoilers below.

Great quotes:

"There's no such thing as 'tough', there's untrained and trained."

"Creasy's art is death, and he's about to paint his masterpiece."

Lisa: What are you gonna do?
Creasy: What I do best. I'm gonna kill 'em. Anyone that was involved. Anybody who profited from it. Anybody who opens their eyes at me.
Lisa: [whispering] You kill 'em all.



Creasy's Chaotic, because the end justifies the means. He's originally Chaotic Neutral, in that he doesn't care about anyone but the job and the drink. Just because a man enters into a contract, does not mean he's Lawful.

Once she gets kidnapped and presumed killed, he begins to take revenge, sliding towards evil. When she turns up alive, he begins to work towards rescuing her, sacrificing his life and even his soul towards that end. Though he lies and kills, the end justifies the means.

Regarding torture: Torture DOES work, although like most uses of force, it has to be used very sparingly, and only in the right context. Delivering a beating just to get someone to confess to something is misguided and will lead nowhere. Encouraging cooperation through proper "stick and carrrot" techniques is something else entirely.

Telas