• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Alignment - is it any good?

I'd also argue that rescuing orphans in order to look good is Neutral at worst, unless you endangered them deliberately for the purpose of looking good rescuing them -- and even then, it's the endangering that's evil, not the looking good. Good can look it. Positive publicity isn't evil, IMHO.

Sure, I buy it. :) I was thinking that the logical consequence of saving the orphans for publicity's sake alone would mean that you *started* the orphanage on fire just so you'd have a chance to save them (and thus we'd get the disrespect for life that Evil is famous for), but there are many valid interpretations of alignment.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

catsclaw227 said:
For those of you that have taken out alignment from your D&D game, how do you handle the spells (detect, protection from, hallow, etc), class abilities (smites, etc), and magic item qualities (good, evil, etc) that rely on teh subsystem to work properly?

They all still work, but they only work on creatures (or items) with the appropriate subtype. So detect Evil would work on a Demon, Devil or a Cleric who worships an evil deity, but it wouldn't work on orcs, goblins, or the bastard down the street who kicks puppies and steals candy from babies.
 

@ Kamikaze Midget -- Cool, we agree. :)

Pbartender said:
They all still work, but they only work on creatures (or items) with the appropriate subtype. So detect Evil would work on a Demon, Devil or a Cleric who worships an evil deity, but it wouldn't work on orcs, goblins, or the bastard down the street who kicks puppies and steals candy from babies.

Yep yep. Same here. Capital-E-Evil means sponsorship by something supernaturally evil, rather than mere lower-case-e-evil conduct.

Note that evil conduct may cost you Good sponsorship, and conduct opposing the will of your dark master may cost you Evil sponsorship. Also note that certain spells imply partial sponsorship -- if you cast an [Evil] spell, you are actually making a (weak, limited) contract with a capital-E-Evil entity. Thus, you get evil sponsorship points, and will eventually detect as [Evil].

Cheers, -- N
 

From a game play standpoint, its always been more trouble than its worth. And I highly doubt its because "I should play with a new group of people" or whatever. Its a really simple, ill defined, yet amazingly important game mechanic. Imagine if making a melee attack was as ill defined as the lawful good alignment is.

My experience in a nutshell.....

New Player- I want to play a monk.

DM- Okay, thats fine with me. Just so you know, you have to be one of the lawful alignments. And since were currently playing an "all good" group, that means you have to be lawful good.

New Player- Thats fine I guess. What does being lawful good mean?

DM- Well, it helps to define your character. It helps you decide how to act, and determines how some magical effects work on you. Playing a lawful good character means that you follow the rules (if those rules are just and good) and help others (if you are able, and helping them is a GOOD thing, and you don't have some other GOOD thing to do thats more important)

New Player- Okay.... what actions in the game are good? Which ones are evil? Is it wrong to loot a body? Is it wrong to be an adventurer? Who's laws do I follow? A kingdoms? Or a gods? Or my sensei's? Or my own personal code of honor? What happens if I kill an evil assassin in cold blood?

DM- Ummmmmm......

Personal preference wise, the idea that you can cast a spell and discover good and evil in absolute universal moralistic terms is boooooring.
 

New Player- Okay.... what actions in the game are good? Which ones are evil? Is it wrong to loot a body? Is it wrong to be an adventurer? Who's laws do I follow? A kingdoms? Or a gods? Or my sensei's? Or my own personal code of honor? What happens if I kill an evil assassin in cold blood?

As far as I am concerned, the proper answer to that is: "Do what you think I mean by '"respect order and honor life,' an I'll sort out the messy details. If you're in danger of losing your abilities, I'll let you know what I expect of you before I actually drop the axe. But basically, think: 'I value patterns and people's happiness.' There's a quick view in the PH, as long as you're mostly close to that, you'll be fine."

Or, in a shorter way: "Use your own head. I'll tell you if we don't seem to be on the same page, but you're clever enough to interpret that paragraph in the PH, I bet."

If it is not considered LG behavior to loot the body, be an adventurer, follow the laws, or kill assassins in cold blood, I will let you know as a DM because your monk would know. But until I tell you otherwise, I trust you as a player to read what the book's written and use your own brain. :)
 

One reason alignment doesn't work is that most beings should probably be classified as neutral. The D&D alignment system is not a particularly mature or deep way of thinking. The Law/Chaos alignment axis seems almost deliberately undefined. There are lots of other things that can affect characters' decisions, such group allegiances, but the game has no mechanic for addressing these.

The Order of the Stick comic has done some really cool stuff with alignment. The leader of the group in the comic is LG, but is at odds with a paladin. The group has a CE member who is loyal to the group.

If I remember correctly, alignment was originally confined to Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic, and basically humanoids and "villains" were chaotic.

It seems that the system was just dreamed up to justify the PCs killing humanoids and villains and looting their possessions. It's kind of like when churches say to the people it's okay to fight and kill the enemies of the state. The heathens are chaotic, but we're lawful.
 
Last edited:

I said:

my earlier post said:
But notice straight away that it rules out (for example) two rival Good churches whose paladins kill one another in holy vengeance. Thus, D&D can't really be used to roleplay the Crusades, medieval Spain (with conflict between Christians, Jews and Muslims), Charles Martel's battle in the Pyrenees, etc.

Instead, paladins' enemies have to be Orcs or other more-or-less inherently evil humanoids (in practice, if not in theory - once orcs, in practice, are given the same range of alignments and personalities as humans, their utility as a game device is lost), and demons. At the same time, there is a push towards homogeneity among the Good churches, because their clergy (if they are to remain Good) must cooperate with one another in the face of evil.
I got these replies:

Kamikaze Midget said:
How? AFAICT, two intractable LG organizations could both go to bloodshed over control of a particular sacred site (for instance), both believing that they are *more* good than the other.

<snip>

It's not inherently evil to slay something Good, or every hungry dire bear living next to a monastery of Pelor would be guilty of deep moral evil. It's not inherently good to slay evil: likewise, the bear next to a goblin camp would be a crusader for justice.
Arkhandus said:
Well of course. Paladins are the holiest and most honorable of warriors; they should not be killing other good people.
I rest my case that alignment is not common sense, and not simple.

Some more comments:

Kamikaze Midget said:
You're looking at it backwards. The D&D cosmos *describes* everything in two dimensions. Meyers-Briggs describes everything in four. Horoscopes, in 12. IQ on one. Alignment is not the entirety of your psyche.
But it is the entirety of the game's moral framework. And my point concerned the complexity of moral judgement, not the (potentially greater) complexity of psychological judgement.

Arkhandus said:
Most Christian knights would not be paladins in D&D, they would be fighters, and not necessarily good-aligned (you can be Neutral or Evil and still fight for a Good cause, if your means of fighting for that cause are not Good; D&D alignment is more about actions than intentions).
This doesn't refute my point. If the game makes most Christian knights come out as Neutral or Evil, but encourages PCs to be Good, then it precludes PCs playing Christian knights. And that was what I said (that, in practice, alignment rules out plots like the Crusades). You seem to agree when you say that D&D is not historical roleplaying.

Btw, with respect to the Dire Bear, I think its ignorance excuses it. If it was an (intelligent) Giant Lynx the story would be different.

And with respect to the following:

Kamikaze Midget said:
There's only one authority at any table that matters: The DM's.

<snip>

the DM will have the final call in how his sides are divided, too.
I think this is part of why alignment causes so much friction at the gaming table.

Thunderfoot said:
older gamers tend to think of generalities in regards to all rules, because with the exception of very specific circumstances, the DM could come up with practically any ruling based on who the DM was, what the situation was and what the die roll was. I'm not saying that its better, just an observation.

Please keep in mind that when I mean old school I mean 1EAD&D or earlier, before settings, before boxed sets, before "Complete" anything. Am I wrong here or does this about sum it up, is it the 'way we were raised' senario playing out here or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Please answer specifically and why you believe yah or nay. But to zero in, when you post put down who long you've playing and with what edition you started.
Me - 29 years, 1eAD&D.
I've been FRPG-ing fopr 25 years; I started with Moldvay Basic/Epert. I think my view that alignment is complex, and in certain respects limiting, is not overly coloured by how I started. It is influenced by what is, in my view the best article on alingment: "For King and Country", in Dragon 101 (from memory). It's probably also influenced by the fact that I am an academic moral philosopher.

I guess my view is that you can have a game with good characters, evil characters, constant characters, changing characters, deep spiritual wrongness, holy divinities, and all the rest, without the alignment mechanic. I know, because I GM such games.

In my experience, if someone wants to play a paladin, who is also a wanton murderer, telling the player that paladins must be Lawful Good won't solve the problem. It will just lead to alignment bickering. We can still have their god take their powers away (and perhaps they can turn to the path of the blackguard). Why do we need to mediate this sort of moral and spiritual matter through the alignment rules? Why not just cut straight to the chase?

I could conceive of particular campaigns where D&D-style alignment might work (eg Moorcock-ian Law vs Chaos). But I don't see how it supports generic fantasy roleplaying.
 

I find that argument flawed.

Nothing says evil or chaotic characters cannot have friends or similar individuals they bear some loyalty to. Even psychotic antisocial misfits can potentially find someone they can get along with, somehow, probably....

Group allegiances do not change whether an individual is evil or chaotic or whatever. If a PC often harms good people, he/she is evil. D&D cosmic forces of alignment don't care if those good people are the enemies of his/her state or what propaganda his/her leaders spoonfed him/her to believe those enemies to be evil. The primordial essence of good still slaps his/her metaphorical wrist and sends him/her away to the Lower Planes for it.

Chaotic is not usually synonymous with 'completely erratic and insane'. That only really applies to things like Slaadi and Demons, or their ilk, not mortals. Few mortals are purely chaotic.

Evil is not usually synonymous with 'hates everyone else completely and forever and has not a single drop of decency or comradarie whatsoever'. Evil people can have friends and family and allies they care about, they just don't care about anyone outside that small circle of allies. Only Fiends and such tend to be completely devoid (usually, not always) of any hint of Good in their personality.


And what's the problem with assuming the average person to be neutral? There's nothing really in the rules that says most characters in a world are good-aligned or something. Neutral generally doesn't mean they just don't care, instead it usually means they just won't stick their neck out for anyone outside their immediate friends and family because it's too dangerous or expensive or inconvenient. Or that they have complex personalities and circumstances, which don't quite tip far enough one way or another to warrant cosmic favor, or disfavor, by any particular primordial force of the D&D Multiverse.


Nothing in D&D ever said Lawful people have to get along, either, or that Good people have to get along. Just because you and your neighbor are both nice people doesn't mean you can't potentially come across a topic or situation that you just can't help but come to blows over. Paladins themselves even have multiple ways they can be portrayed and still qualify as paladins in their behavior and without straying from LG; many folks just assume an excessively rigid definition of LG + paladin's code that the rules don't really support exclusively.


Early D&D was based at least partly on the Elric series if I recall correctly, which is where it got the initial concept of law and chaos being the major ethical forces of the multiverse. Again, IIRC. Then it later broadened out and involved the more traditionally romanticized conflict of good versus evil, as part of the alignment system, I think.


And I find your last point to just seem rude somehow. D&D developed from a tactical miniatures wargame where the whole objective was to defeat the opponent's army and reap the spoils of war. Which evolved into dungeon delving, slaying inhuman monsters, and taking the treasure they had most likely obtained from the slaughter of previously-visiting humanoids, then going back to town and selling the loot for personal gain, after going to the trouble of wiping out the dangerous monsters and avenging those humanoids they had slain before. At least, sometimes that's how it was, right? Then it evolved into more complex adventures at some point along the way or shortly afterwards, I think.

Of course heroes always get the treasure and fame after they defeat the monsters and save the townsfolk/princess/kingdom/whatever in myths and fairy tales. What do you expect?

Yes, the alignment system in D&D partially justifies the whole adventuring lifestyle of killing monsters and taking their stuff. That's always been the main point of D&D, hasn't it? Sure it branched out into other roleplaying stuff too, but at the heart it's about adventurers going out and slaying monsters/villains and taking their loot, whether it's for the greater good (exterminating evil) or for personal glory and wealth. Other forms of roleplaying are fine, but they are not what D&D was generally built to support in the first place, so it has to support its original premise at least somewhat.

Like it or not, historical wars and crusades and junk have often been more about money and prestige than about right and wrong. Barbarians raided and pillaged for food, valuables, and women. Knights marched off to war for glory and the chance at taking some choice loot from their foes or being payed nice sums by King or Church for their efforts. Countries made war for the sake of gaining land, loot, slaves, peasant labor, resources, and tribute. And so on and so forth.

D&D supports the same kind of activities in its fantasy settings, as long as the DM uses alignments to properly portray each force and relay to the players what the consequences are. They may be the defenders or the warmongers, it doesn't matter; if they're the defenders, the invaders are probably evil creatures, unless the DM is trying to force a moral quandary to get the PCs moving elsewhere to try and stop the war nonviolently. If the PCs are the invaders, then the enemy group is probably some evil humanoids, or fiends, or whatever; unless the PCs are evil themselves, of course, in which case the enemy group could be anything. But D&D assumes the typical Player Characters to be heroes of at least slightly-good intentions.


Now of course if you're a total pacifist or one who simply thinks all killing is outright wrong no matter what, including imaginary killing of imaginary villains, then of course D&D isn't the game for you; combat is its centerpiece and at least partly the focus of most adventures/campaigns. But in a fantasy world like D&D, where demons and devils and cultists and hobgoblins and orcs and red dragons are all about, mercilessly destroying innocent people and looting their corpses, you can't really justify standing around and doing nothing as a pacifist. Those same monsters will continue committing unspeakable acts until everyone else is dead, and it would be wrong, Evil in fact, to just allow that to happen if you are in fact in a position to do something about it.

This is the world in which D&D characters live; where monsters and villains run amok and somebody has to do something about it, or all life will end and, in fact, even the Upper Planes will be vulnerable to attack and then everyone's immortal souls will probably be dragged kicking and screaming into the Lower Planes, eventually, for lack of anyone fighting the evil beasties. It wouldn't be heroic if there were no villains to defeat; saving puppies from wells and kittens from trees would hardly be exciting day-to-day adventuring for a band of intrepid heroes.

And not everyone wants to deal with grey morality being the only morality in the game. Having to constantly struggle with our characters trying to gain acceptance as heroes and not pegged as homicidal maniacs is generally not fun on a daily/weekly basis. Generally, most gamers are not, in fact, masochists.
 

Previous post was directed at Urbannen.

pemerton:
Actually, it only precludes players playing historically-accurate typical Christian knights. Historically they were more like mercenaries, in it for the loot and the glory they would have back home, in most cases, IIRC. As I thought I had mentioned already, D&D already does a fine job of modelling a fantasy version of Earth. Historically, few wars could really be justified as right and just, if any at all could be.

Fantasy versions of Christian knights would probably be as just and good as they believed themselves to be, and would be fighting forces of evil that they could clearly Detect as such. And not simply because someone told them the enemy was evil; but because primordial, cosmic forces of good and evil would be indicating that to them through a spell that taps into said cosmic forces.

And no, use of Alignment in D&D does not rule out 'plots' like the Crusades. It just involves a little bit of change. Both sides could be neutral, and if their faiths allowed neutral clerics (or lawful neutral ones, or whatever), then they could still duke it out thinking one of them is right and good and the other is wrong and bad. After all, D&D has spells and such that block alignment detection or fool it, anyway, though they can be dispelled.

That doesn't mean D&D's alignment system sucks or doesn't model Earth well; it's not supposed to! It's supposed to model fantasy settings where good and evil are primordial forces that are clear-cut and opposed to one another! Real Earth has grey morality and nothing else. It's all a matter of personal opinions and majority opinions here. In D&D the moralities are forces of nature separate from the mere whims of mortals. Interpretation is still open to debate, but the alignments are somewhat well defined at least, and anything in D&D can be pegged with an alignment if someone just considers it sensibly enough and factors in other examples from the game.

And I don't think KM actually posted anything that conflicted with my assertion that actual Paladins wouldn't take part in the conflict you mentioned......but I dunno, I didn't read through it all again today.

And anyway, it appears that your opinion is just that DM Fiat should be the one and only truth forevermore in an RPG, and that nothing else matters. :\
 

Psion said:
"Alignment forces you to do X" - wrong. We left that crap behind with 2e. Alignment is evaluative, not compulsory. If your character has CG on their sheet, but consistently behave CN, then change it to CN.

I don't think that is completely correct - the problem is the alignment prescriptions tied into character classes. If you want to be a monk, Lawful is compulsory. If you want to be a bard Lawful is prohibited. If you perform outside the *restrictions* of your alignment, your character may lose the ability to continue in his chosen class, and even lose some of his class abilities.

I'd have a lot more time for the argument that 'alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive' if the prescriptions were not built into the basic classes.

The obvious solution would be to remove those restrictions (at least in most cases). After all, who is to say that a monk who was completely concerned with balance might not want to be morally true neutral, for instance? Why not have a supremely disciplined (lawful) temple chorister bard?

Cheers
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top