Alignment used as crutch.....

[King_Stannis]

I have kept alignment, but use it more for my players’ benefit than my own. I think that in certain instances, it helps roleplaying. But I agree that it should not be used as a crutch for foolish or suicidal behavior. I’ve done away with “detect evil” for “detect evil/harmful intent”, based largely on the recommendations of people on these boards. It’s not an integral part of my games and it's an antiquated trapping of the original game, but it has led to some pleasant surprises. One of my players is currently giving a tour-de-force on playing someone with a lawful evil alignment. Memo to anyone trying this: you CAN get along with good characters….just because you play a LE character you don’t always have to be scheming to kill them all behind their backs. Good lord, I think his best friend in the party is the cleric of a good deity!

to anyone doing away with alignment, i can absolutely see your point. i vascillate all the time, but i think i'll keep it in for now. it hasn't done any harm to my games...at least not yet.

 

[Henrix]

Well, a year and a half ago, when I started my 3rd Ed game (first time I played D&D in 15 years or so), I had my qualms about PC alignment.

But then I decided to use it as a description of how the characters were played. Not as directions to how they were, but as descriptions of how they had been played in the past.

If I feel that a character's behaviour changes, I (the DM) change the character's alignment. If I have to do that several times, fine. I have no problem with that, and think that a character may be good one day and neutral the next day.

This has worked very well, with the exception of one of the players, who somehow is locked in the "I have to do this because my character is Chaotic" mindset.

I am now thinking of keeping the PCs' alignment a secret from their players

 

[maddman75]

I've never really had a problem with alignments. I do alter the detect evil nonsense a bit - it works like the 2e paladin ability. It detect evil/hostile intent. So, a band of orcs getting ready to ambush the party would show up, but a NE wizard having a drink at the bar minding his own business would not.

The exception to this would be very strongly aligned creatures. Undead, outsiders, and dragons almost always detect, because I see their alignment as being that strongly determined.

A mortal could reach this level of evil, but to be honest if he does you probably wouldn't need a spell to figure it out

As for PCs, yes I've had 'those' players. The ones that seem to think the only alignments are Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Greedy. However, I don't think its the alignment rules that are the problem there. I took a cue from dinkeldog here - they can write whatever they want on their character sheet. Their actions determine alignment.

 

[Pheonix]

While I have never had the misfortune of meeting a Lawful Gestapo (although some players have half-jokingly accused me of playing one right now ), I have had one particularly bad experience with a Chaotic Stupid.
Truth be told, the kid (lets call him Stephen) would have played the same way without alignment. But the fact he had CN written on his sheet gave him an _excuse_ for playing that way. Stephen did things like steal from party members, threaten unarmed clerks in a town hall (right in front of a bunch of watchmen) because they were giving him paper trouble, and cry when his character was hung for causing a riot. He would have behaved the same way without alignment. But with that CN on his sheet, it give him an excuse-he would say, "That's my character, he's CN, he'll act that way!" And, unfortunately, I did not have enough players to just kick him out . The game eventually ended over the hanging issue .

 

[Holy Bovine]

While I have never had the misfortune of meeting a Lawful Gestapo (although some players have half-jokingly accused me of playing one right now ), I have had one particularly bad experience with a Chaotic Stupid.
Truth be told, the kid (lets call him Stephen) would have played the same way without alignment. But the fact he had CN written on his sheet gave him an _excuse_ for playing that way. Stephen did things like steal from party members, threaten unarmed clerks in a town hall (right in front of a bunch of watchmen) because they were giving him paper trouble, and cry when his character was hung for causing a riot. He would have behaved the same way without alignment. But with that CN on his sheet, it give him an excuse-he would say, "That's my character, he's CN, he'll act that way!" And, unfortunately, I did not have enough players to just kick him out . The game eventually ended over the hanging issue .

First off, it really sucks that your game actually ended over that - that is always a shame and a waste.

Now on to my point (I may actually have one ). If a player says to me (as a DM) that his character is CN and would act that way I am not going to go out of my way to stop him. I would say simply "Then you are accepting whatever consequences may result". If he continues and actually causes a riot/robbery/murder whatever then he shouldn't be surprised when he is arrested, tried and convicted of his crimes.

I am really big on people being responsible for their own actions in my RPGs and real life in general. You can't blame everything on whatever happened to you in the past.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Holy Bovine! Yeah, I love that! In my campaign, I have the law so well-tuned that the players will jump on any other player *thinking* about causing mayhem--the other players know full well that the game world, like the real-world, has a ruthless and unwavering way of bringing consequences to bear for one's actions. The more mayhem one causes, the harder the hammer comes down!

Sometimes, in very strict cities that love law, and love righteous, lawful behavior, even some more *slight* actions of mayhem can bring awesome punishment! The party has over time learned that there are consequences for their actions, words, and behavior. If they act stupid, they will be hammered. It tends to encourage a sense of respect for the dignity of the campaign world, I think. It seems to ground them in reality a bit, you know? It's a good thing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[JacktheRabbit]

One of the most annoying things I encounter is Lawful Arrogant. Its the Lawful Good player who is loud obnoxious and arrogant because their character is Lawful Good so if you are disagreeing with them at all then YOU are wrong on all counts.

In fact I have seen this abused more times than I have seen Chaotic Neutral abused.

 

[Limper]

Thank you all for your insights and for sharing your weals and woes with me. This was not a troll just more ranting by a rather angry man.

SHARK: I couldn't agree more there should be dire consequnces for moronic action.

It breaks my heart to find so many others who share my experiences in frustration.

Does anyone have a good (good being: not entirely subjective way) of tracking player actions on the various spokes of the alignment wheel? I'm envisioning something like 4 circles each labled for one of the components of alignment (N being when these numbers are in balance) in which a players actions after being scored can be recorded. This would allow for actions to speak AND let all the alignment based garbage in the system to still function.

I like many of your suggestions but its not every DM I'd trust to judge PC action, some could use guidence.

Valicor: Its nice to hear Stone Cold says so in agreement to my plight.

 

[Anabstercorian]

The Hackmaster DMG has a great system for that. Check it out in the store - And check out that crit table, too!