All About Grappling (Part Two)

[Egres]

New weirdness.

From the RotG article:

If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). A creature with natural weaponry can choose to deal nonlethal damage in a grapple by taking a -4 penalty.

Now, let's check the SRD:

Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike.

From when an Unarmed Strike is like a Natural Weapon?

Not to mention the following passage:

You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling. In many cases, though, you're better off making an opposed grapple check to damage your opponent rather than making an attack with a natural weapon (see the section on damaging your opponent for details).
That statement alone is directly in contradiction with at least two listed rules sections. One is the PHB/SRD section on Attacking an Opponent while grappling. The other is the Rake section.

Should we expect other house rules from Skip?

 

[Hypersmurf]

New weirdness.

Yeah... neither of those appear accurate, to me.

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Which puts RotG articles right back with the FAQ - where they belong.

 

[Gansk]

Lets use the ape as an example:

The ape has the option to attack three times (claw/claw/bite) at +3/+3/-2 using the attack option, if the attack penetrates the opponents AC, it does the claw or bite damage.

If the ape uses the damage your opponent option, it makes a grapple check at +12. If it wins, it does the claw damage, since that is its primary natural weapon.

Now with a polar bear:

The polar bear can attack at +9/+9/+4 or make two grapple checks, one at +18 and one at +13 (its BAB is greater than +5).

Would you consider this to be a pure house rule or a valid attempt at interpreting the unclearly written rules?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Would you consider this to be a pure house rule or a valid attempt at interpreting the unclearly written rules?

Pure House Rule.

If the Ape decides to use the "Damage Your Opponent" grappling action, it makes a grapple check at +12, and if successful, does 1d6+5* non-lethal / subdual damage, just like any other large creature.

If, instead, it decided to use the "Attack Your Opponent" grappling action, it would make a claw attack roll at +7, with a -4 penalty for being in a grapple. If successful, it would do 1d6+5 lethal damage, as is normal for a claw.

* - I think it's 1d6 for a Large creature. It might, instead, by 1d4.

EDIT:

The polar bear can attack at +9/+9/+4 or make two grapple checks, one at +18 and one at +13 (its BAB is greater than +5).

When grappled, the Polar Bear has two potential grapple actions each round, as you say, at +18 and +13.

With those grapple actions, it may elect to use any of the grapple options, with the caveat that at no time can it gain extra attacks with a natural weapon due to high BAB.

Note, of course, that a polar bear has the Improved Grab special ability. Among other things, this lets it:

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.

A polar bear, therefore, would do normal claw damage (1d8+8, lethal) in place of unarmed strike damage (1d6+8, nonlethal).

 

[Gansk]

So you are saying the Polar Bear can make two grapple checks per round for all options that replace an attack, except for the "Damage Your Opponent" option?

Does the Improved Grab ability allow the Polar Bear to inflict claw damage on any successful grapple check regardless of the option chosen? So it could inflict damage in addition to pinning an opponent?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So you are saying the Polar Bear can make two grapple checks per round for all options that replace an attack, except for the "Damage Your Opponent" option?

No, I'm saying that it could not use the "Attack Your Opponent" option twice, because in doing so it would be gaining claw attacks at +X / +X-5, which is an iterative attack, and therefore not possible with a natural weapon.

It could, however, use the first grapple check during its turn to pin its opponent, and then damage its opponent with the next check (doing claw damage if successful because of the Improved Grab ability).

Does the Improved Grab ability allow the Polar Bear to inflict claw damage on any successful grapple check regardless of the option chosen? So it could inflict damage in addition to pinning an opponent?

It seems that way, huh? I don't think that's what it means, though - rather, it means the polar bear does claw damage in place of an unarmed strike when it uses the "Damage Your Opponent" option. So, instead of doing 1d6 + 8 nonlethal (as a large creature), it would do 1d8 + 8 lethal damage.

 

[Caliban]

No, I'm saying that it could not use the "Attack Your Opponent" option twice, because in doing so it would be gaining claw attacks at +X / +X-5, which is an iterative attack, and therefore not possible with a natural weapon.

I would disagree with this. It's certainly allowed to make multiple grapple checks, and I don't see any limitation on what options it can use in the grapple rules.

I believe that the grapple rules take precedence when you are grappling, and the natural weapon rules take precedence when you are attacking with natural weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I believe that the grapple rules take precedence when you are grappling, and the natural weapon rules take precedence when you are attacking with natural weapons.

Works for me.

And when you take the "Attack your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against an opponent you are grappling" option, you're attacking with natural weapons, and you're grappling. So you need to obey both sets of rules... including "Creatures never gain multiple attacks with natural weapons for having a high BAB".

If the bear didn't have a high BAB, he wouldn't gain a second grapple check, so the second attack with his claw is a multiple attack for having a high BAB, and is therefore prohibited.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Works for me.

And when you take the "Attack your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against an opponent you are grappling" option, you're attacking with natural weapons, and you're grappling. So you need to obey both sets of rules... including "Creatures never gain multiple attacks with natural weapons for having a high BAB".

If the bear didn't have a high BAB, he wouldn't gain a second grapple check, so the second attack with his claw is a multiple attack for having a high BAB, and is therefore prohibited.

-Hyp.

He's using a grapple check option to make the attack. I don't think it's prohibited.