All D20 Is Broken

[Digital Archon]

Anyone can change any system to be anything they want it to be. This "no-duh" moment brought to you courtesey of Captain Obvious!

Quick! Do Nobilis with GURPS!

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Funny - I was thinking people throw "All d20" around way, way too causally .

'Cause I know he's not talking about Spycraft .

Heh, heh, heh! The best combat that I had run in years was for a steam era Spycraft 2.0 game. Combat may take a while, but that is because the characters are doing things! I had a blast.

The Auld Grump, D&D 3.X is the first version of the game where I have had any interest whatsoever in running past 10th level.

 

[Crothian]

Anyone can change any system to be anything they want it to be. This "no-duh" moment brought to you courtesey of Captain Obvious!

Actuaqlkly, this is completely false. THere are plenty of people that cannot change an RPG into something they like. The boards are full of people that and posts that would not exist if they had this ability. Ity is much harder then people realize to change a system into what a person wants. If it were easy, there would be more and better RPOG writers.

 

[tetsujin28]

Quick! Do Nobilis with GURPS!

It could be done, but why ruin GURPS?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I think this is where we are having problems. You think first level characters are peseants and high level ones are super heroes. I don't see it that way. But ya, if you are assuming the characters are going from peasants to super heroes over the course of 20 levels, that is really going to effect the way the game runs. But I see it just as compitancy and ability. The same as in other games I run. like for instance White Wolf.

Well, if going from not being able to survive a fight with a bobcat to being able to wipe out an entire army single-handedly doesn't count as peasants-to-superheroes, then we're in agreement.

In my opinion, it does count as such.

Of course, that generally doesn't happen in a low-magic campaign, which, by its very nature, is going to require significant house rules (or the acquisition of rules from another source), because it's contra the classes and wealth-by-level guidelines that are central to 3.x D&D - though not all d20.

With houserules, this phenomena can certainly be avoided. Some of those houserules are fairly simple. They are not, however, in the book. I could houserule classes and levels into HERO and mimic D&D progression; I could houserule new classes and stretched levels into d20 and mimic Dragon Quest. That doesn't mean HERO has classes or D&D retains a similar feel from levels 1 through 45. Neither speaks to the flexibility of the system.

 

[Numion]

D20 is not my favorite system, but I can tell you that my level 8-9 group of 8 players would disagree strongly with the OP. We have had some pretty epic battles and sometimes they end up moving more than actually fighting, trying to gain terrain advantage and tactical superiority. I suspect your experience possibly comes from your group's unwillingness to experiment with some of the more arcane combat maneovres, such as those posted by MerricB.

The OP didn't match my experiences either. At higher levels it's very foolish to stand put like a stooge. It really isn't most advantageous to stay put to get those full attacks. The reason is pretty simple (there are other reasons too) - the higher CR baddies can easily match and raise your full attack. They deal higher damage and can take more punishment.

At least I've changed positions many times just to avoid the trolls or giants full attack by striking once and moving near my PC comrade who can then get a full attack on the troll or giant if the critter follows me.

 

[Rykion]

Obviously, D&D has proven more popular than HERO or SilCore. On the flip side, it's proven less popular than Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, so I'm not sure the "game changes considerably as you advance in levels" aspect is a strength.

I doubt the popularity of any console or computer game proves that characters maintaining the same relative power level throughout the game is a strength. Console games don't require one person to read and be knowledgable about 400+ pages of rules and have 2 or more people over to play, making them far more accessible. WoW is one of the most popular computer MMORPGs and relative character strength does vary quite a bit by level. I think the people that enjoy the tactical part of D&D combat are likely to enjoy the variety caused by having different relative power levels at different class levels, and those who want to focus on the storyline will probably enjoy combat at every level being basically the same.

Well, if going from not being able to survive a fight with a bobcat to being able to wipe out an entire army single-handedly doesn't count as peasants-to-superheroes, then we're in agreement.

The same can be said of the vast majority of console and PC RPGs, except the linear ones that don't let you go back to places you visited earlier. Go to the first town in Dragon Quest VIII, after hitting level 8+, and see how dangerous the slimes and candy cats seem. In a flexible game like D&D, the DM can put in different monsters or give them character levels so that the players don't have to deal with the same old pointless low level encounters.

 

[Crothian]

Well, if going from not being able to survive a fight with a bobcat to being able to wipe out an entire army single-handedly doesn't count as peasants-to-superheroes, then we're in agreement.

That only happens if you have strong bobcats and weak armies.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

It's the system in Call of Cthulhu, and it doesn't nessesarily work like that until you get two people with high levels in both attack and defense facing each other. In the Basic Roleplaying System, you make your attack roll. If you roll under your skill, you hit. The opponent then gets a defense roll, either a block or a dodge. He rolls the approporiate skill. If he succeeds, your hit becomes a miss.

And 10 points of damage is a lot in BRP - your HP equal the average of you Con and Size... (For Joe Average about..mmm...10.) Amor reduces damage rather than making it harder to hit, and shields really are your best friend in a fantasy setting.

Runequest was the original in regards to the BRP system, and included hit locations - 10 points would likely cost you a limb.

The Auld Grump - Runequest is coming back, Runequest is coming back, Runequest is coming back!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I doubt the popularity of any console or computer game proves that characters maintaining the same relative power level throughout the game is a strength. Console games don't require one person to read and be knowledgable about 400+ pages of rules and have 2 or more people over to play, making them far more accessible. WoW is one of the most popular computer MMORPGs and relative character strength does vary quite a bit by level.

For what it's worth, even with WoW's immense popularity by MMORPG standards, it still managed less than half of an (offline) Final Fantasy in total player base. In the rush make MMOs in general and WoW in particular appear as great and terrible avatars of The Future, one tends to forget that even by far the most successful of them doesn't come close to matching successful offline games' sales. They make as much or more due to their business model, but their number of players is much lower.

I doubt that's germane to the discussion, though.

I think the people that enjoy the tactical part of D&D combat are likely to enjoy the variety caused by having different relative power levels at different class levels, and those who want to focus on the storyline will probably enjoy combat at every level being basically the same.

I'm not so sure. Both groups, in my experience, want to have regular mechanical advancement to reinforce their success in their chosen field of endevour. Individuals in both groups tend to have specific 'sweet spots' where they enjoy the style of the game.

The same can be said of the vast majority of console and PC RPGs, except the linear ones that don't let you go back to places you visited earlier. Go to the first town in Dragon Quest VIII, after hitting level 8+, and see how dangerous the slimes and candy cats seem. In a flexible game like D&D, the DM can put in different monsters or give them character levels so that the players don't have to deal with the same old pointless low level encounters.

Certainly true (although some console games, such as Final Fantasy VIII and most tactics RPGs, level the monsters with the party, ala Spycraft).

Anyway, as late as 25th or 30th level in DQ8, King Clavius still refers to the party as being "as strong as" his guards, not significantly stronger. Really, until their meeting with the Godbird, the PCs never think of themselves as truly singular talents, nor are they treated as such by NPCs - and the point at which they are is storyline dependent, not level dependent. In FF8, your characters are considered elite from the outset, even though they begin at low level, and aren't recognized as being a cut above elite until the endgame.

From a mechanical perspective, the way in which you fight doesn't change radically as you level, and the other ways you interact with the world change even less. In Xenogears, once you get gears and the Ygg (both due to storyline events, not levels), you're pretty much where you'll be for the rest of the game in terms of mobility and style of combat, even though you acquire new ether, deathblows, gear parts, etc. In DQ8, aside from acquiring new modes of transportation, you're basically just progressing with similar tactics and options, but learning to apply them to new foes.

Also, in DQ8, you just cast Holy Protection so you don't have to deal with pointless low-level encounters.