All these Classes to choose from...... Oh My!

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

IAs does everything lately with a "Dragon" attatched to it. One or two dragon-based classes is enough already. The Dragon based stuff is becoming more like the Drow/Drizzt fad of old.... a complete turn off.

There are only two dragon-based core classes, the Dragon Shaman (PHB2) and the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic).

Are you turned off by them creating as many dragon-based core classes as you think are appropriate?

 

[Psion]

This coming from the guy with "terminology ____" in his previous post. If you read the flavor text, it is obviously wizards attempt at an asian themed class. You may not like it, but it is their attempt at an asian feel.

My point is that it's a poor attempt at Asian feel, IMHO. They did a pretty good job the first time around in OA; why they felt they had to make it into a much less flexible class that does not acheive the feel of its inspiration as well still escapes me. The only reason I can think is that the author had mechanics on the mind, not feel. Thus my disagreement.

Hm. That's a shame, I suppose. But then again, your game, your rules. I'll not judge ya! I like the four. But I admit the knight is kinda situation specific as is the dragan shaman. But I've yet to ban any classes from the first 4 Completes, the XPH, or the PHB II. Like I said earlier, those kind of decisionas are based on the players around the table. No need to judge one from another.

Part of the reason I ban classes I do is in consideration for players at the table. Frex, I had serious reservations about allowing a spelltheif in a game, thinking that it only really fit right in a really mage-heavy urban setting (to the tune of Brust's Dragaera). But I'm pretty easy going GM, so I allowed it against my better judgement... and it sucked, precisely because it was outside of the environment where it made sense. Just because a class seems cool on paper does not mean it will be enjoyable to play.

FWIW, the knight is the one PHB II class I am not specifically banning, though I do think there are other third party knight variants that are just as good.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

My point is that it's a poor attempt at Asian feel, IMHO. They did a pretty good job the first time around in OA; why they felt they had to make it into a much less flexible class that does not acheive the feel of its inspiration as well still escapes me. The only reason I can think is that the author had mechanics on the mind, not feel. Thus my disagreement.

Oh, I figured as much. That's why I said earlier that you may not like it, but it was at least their attempt. I think your opinion would match a large amount of people's opinions on these boards to be honest. I've even laughed as some people said that the samurai wouldn't be a half bad class if the name was changed so that it didn't ended up dssapointing people because it isn't a samurai they want to play.

Part of the reason I ban classes I do is in consideration for players at the table. Frex, I had serious reservations about allowing a spelltheif in a game, thinking that it only really fit right in a really mage-heavy urban setting (to the tune of Brust's Dragaera). But I'm pretty easy going GM, so I allowed it against my better judgement... and it sucked, precisely because it was outside of the environment where it made sense. Just because a class seems cool on paper does not mean it will be enjoyable to play.

Oh yeah. I agree. The thing with the base classes in the Complete series is that they are awesome in their narrowly defined niche. In general play, however, must of the PHB classes outshine the Complete classes.

FWIW, the knight is the one PHB II class I am not specifically banning, though I do think there are other third party knight variants that are just as good.

Maybe. I don't read many 3rd party sources simply because I have a hard enough time keeping all the WotC stuff straight. I know that isn't necessarily right, because there is some good stuff out there. I admit I just don't know about it.

 

[Aus_Snow]

[. . .] I do think there are other third party knight variants that are just as good.

Just out of curiousity, which ones (from where) do you think are best?

 

[Psion]

Just out of curiousity, which ones (from where) do you think are best?

Relics & Rituals: Excalibur's knight feels just about right to me, and I really dig the honor system & feats in the book. The knight in Legends of Excalibur is also the bee's knees, though I think it works better in a campaign a bit lighter than the D&D average.

 

[Kurashu]

I allowed the Favored Soul, Hexblade, Ninja, Samurai, Scout, Shugenja, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Warmage, and Wu Jen. However, there are some limitations.

Ninja, Samurai, Shugenja and Wu Jen are limited to a "country" called Bhu Tën, which is a trading enclave for a foreign country, although their techinques have begun diseminating throughout the other countries. Hexblades are seen as the champions of Elboen and the anti-paladin (there are Blackguards too but much rarer and often much more insidious). Warlocks and Spellthieves are also common in Elboen. Spirit Shamans, Favored Souls, and some Druids serve as spiritual advisors to the Barbarian tribes in Zaar and D'ni. Warmages are common among all nations except Lyonesse, there isn't much arcane magic in Lyonesse. It's quite the opposite in Elboen.


But that's me getting off on a tangent.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Relics & Rituals: Excalibur's knight feels just about right to me, and I really dig the honor system & feats in the book. The knight in Legends of Excalibur is also the bee's knees, though I think it works better in a campaign a bit lighter than the D&D average.

Ah. Yeah, LoE is a nice book all round, I think. But I'm a bit of a 'Legends of _______' fan in general. I'll have to have a closer look at R&R:E one of these days.

Um, /tangent too.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I allowed the Favored Soul, Hexblade, Ninja, Samurai, Scout, Shugenja, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Warlock, Warmage, and Wu Jen. However, there are some limitations.

Isn't that all but the swashbuckler? What's wrong with it?

 

[BadMojo]

Definately on the warlock and the duskblade. Both of those get the "Broken" label by people who read but don't play them. But in gameplay I've found the warlock a bit boring for long games (although terrifically fun for short games) and the Duskblade's spell list is so limited that while powerful it lack versatility completely. A party with a duskblade and no arcanist with sorely miss their arcanist!

Hopefully the Complete Mage book will add a little more flexibility with more invocations (and maybe some good Warlock feats), but the class does come down to blasting, blasting and then blasting again. Kind of like a Fantasy version of Cyclops.

I haven't played a Duskblade yet, but I definitely think the "overpowered" lable isn't accurate. The duskblade doesn't have the area effect damage spells (ie. Fireball) that can really make a difference when fighting lots of foes, and no defensive spells.

On top of that, you'll always be in melee to use your spells but only have D8 hit dice and can't wear heavy armor without a feat and then still not until 7th level. Got a bit of the old MAD going with a good Strength, Int., Con and (unless you go the shield and heavy armor route) Dex. It looks like the class would start off strong in a game, but once the spells are gone and you've absorbed a few shots, it's gonna get rough with the low HP.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Kind of like a Fantasy version of Cyclops. .

Yeah. Pretty much. They got a little love in Dragon Magic, though. I think that was probably appropriate. A bit of love, but not so much that those who don't have Complete Arcane reget the space used.

I haven't played a Duskblade yet, but I definitely think the "overpowered" lable isn't accurate. The duskblade doesn't have the area effect damage spells (ie. Fireball) that can really make a difference when fighting lots of foes, and no defensive spells.

Yeah. Theyre definately melee combatants. Not unlike a paladin in actual play - except that the pladin's stuff is in the form of buffs and heals while the duskblade is arcane damage on top of melee strike.

only have D8 hit dice and can't wear heavy armor without a feat and then still not until 7th level.

This is an argument that I really don't get at higher levels. I've never understood why heavy armor prof is really all that important except at low levels. Mithral anything is at most a medium armor. A Duskblade can wear a mithral full-plate without any feats spent. Sure, it costs money ... but that's really only a big deal at lower levels.