Alt. Spell-learning rules (some math involved)

[Drawmack]

Specialist mods could be -2 and Opposed school mods would be +2...not per level, but just a straight adjustment. Or, if you prefer, the base Spellcraft check would be DC 13 (18 non-PHB) and DC 17 (22 non-PHB), +2/spell level respectively?

Actually I like the roll aspect to set the DC. I'm just not sure how to leave the roll aspect in an still have it streamlined.

Maybe +/-1d6 or something like that. Not per level though. Just calculate the DC then roll a d6 and add or subtract that from the DC as is appropriate.

Can you do me a favor and either revise the initial post or post the complete revisions so far so I can see what is going on with the rules now?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As it stands right now:

PHB spell Spellcraft DC = 15 + 2/spell level. Classes that have a base spell list that includes non-PHB spells (like Warmages or Wu Jen) treat those spells as PHB spells.

When the PC is created, the player can choose his spells freely, but for every increase in spellcasting power, instead of choosing spells normally, he must make Spellcraft checks. Instead, he picks a spell and rolls a spellcraft check- if the check is unsuccessful, he cannot learn that spell that level, and must wait until next level, and must choose another spell to research.

Non-PHB spells Spellcraft DC = 20 + 2/spell level. Before the Catastrophe, PHB spells were more common, and there weill be more scraps and rumors of what they did, making researching them much easier.

20 = success regardless of DC.

Metamagic Feats factor their LA into the spell level of the DC. A 1st Lvl spell being learned with a +2LA metamagic feat incorporated in it is treated as learning a 3rd level spell. The research process will introduce some happy discoveries, so some spells may be created in a more powerful form.

A spell weaker than its printed form will have its negative LA calculated by DM & player, and factored into the spell level of the DC, as per Metamagic feats. The research process will introduce some errors, so some spells may be created in a less powerful form.

Classes that have a mechanic for adding spells to their spell list do not use this mechanic.

Feats that add to a PC's spell list do not use this mechanic.

Proposed Changes:

Specialist Adjustment: Reduce the DC of learning a spell within the Specialist's school by 1d6. Specialists find it easier to learn spells within their specialty.

Opposed Spell Adjustment: Increase the DC of learning an opposed school spell by +2d4. Specialists find it more difficult (but not impossible in this campaign) to learn spells from Opposed Schools. Classes with limited lists who are not otherwise specialists may learn spells this way. Regardless of class, only one "Opposed" spell per spell level may be learned- one Cantrip, one 1st level spell, 1 second level spell, etc. You cannot use this method to learn spells across the Arcane/Divine divide.

Question- in the light of the Opposed Spell adjustment, do you think that the non-PHB base of 20 +2/level is too high? If so, what about 18 + 2/level?

 

[Drawmack]

As it stands right now:

if the check is unsuccessful, he cannot learn that spell that level, and must wait until next level, and must choose another spell to research.

Not a change but a rewording to make the language less cumbersome.

If the check is unseccessful, the spell is not learned and another may be taken in its place. The unseccessfull spell may be attempted again at the next level.

Question- in the light of the Opposed Spell adjustment, do you think that the non-PHB base of 20 +2/level is too high? If so, what about 18 + 2/level?

It depends on what you're looking for in your game. It inceases the difficulty level by 25% to learn a non-PHB spell vs. a PHB spell. So a wizard with a 14 int stands a 45% chance to learn a PHB spell and a 20% chance to learn a non-PHB spell. Increase the int to 18 and it's a 60% chance on PHB spells or 35% chance on non-PHB spells.

Now, if they don't learn the spell they get to learn a different one. This will probably not decrease the attempts to learn non-PHB spells, but it will significantly decrease the number on non-PHB spells actually learned.

I would think this could make for a neat role-playing dynamic where purveyors of non-PHB spells attain a higher status among their wizarding bretheren.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If the check is unseccessful, the spell is not learned and another may be taken in its place. The unseccessfull spell may be attempted again at the next level.

That's a good language revision.

As to what I want...

Originally, I wanted players to make (or at least, have the option of making) their own spells. Unfortunately, like I said, I couldn't find an already published version of spell design rules that had the flexibility I wanted and that I believed my players would have liked. Or tolerated.

The system I was designing had all of the flexibility, but the detail was such that it amounted to learning a new game...I knew I couldn't sell it to the players.

This system, simple though it is, gives me much of what I want. The researching PCs will (at least) be able to learn spells that don't appear in print anywhere in the world, meaning a crafty player could concievably take a combo of feats and spells that really optimize their PCs. Imagine a PC who memorized a variety of Magic Missile spells...some Admixed, some maximized, some with extra range-

I'm also considering working in elements of the other system, so that spells could really get customized. I could see someone designing a "Sundering Arrow" or "Explosive Arrow" once I figure out what kind of LA to assign.

ARGH! Something else I left out: Regardless of the modifications to a spell, you can still apply Metamagical feats to it, even the same one as was used in designing the spell. The exception is Opposed School spells- once learned, they may not be metamagically modified, even by items that would allow you to apply a metamagical feat to a spell.

Now, if they don't learn the spell they get to learn a different one. This will probably not decrease the attempts to learn non-PHB spells, but it will significantly decrease the number on non-PHB spells actually learned

I don't know- crafty players will prioritze the non-PHB spells they want to learn so they're the first attempts, playing the odds and hoping one of them will get learned. After going through all of those, they'll pick up the non-PHB spells.

Heck- the rule is even potentially abusable if I have enough researcher in the party. This rule only affects the spells you're getting as a level benefit, not spells that are already written down somewhere. With 2 researchers in the party, the smart guy goes for the tough-to-learn spells, while the lesser student learns the easy ones. Then they compare notes & trade spells.

 

[Drawmack]

I was talking about role-playing and flavor when I said it depends what you want. Consider how the rules are going to affect the role-playing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ah...role-play implications!

Since civilization has collapsed, those spellcasters who depend on academic/written sources for increasing their knowledge are, in a sense, screwed. They must personally research every spell they learn through personal experimentation and assembling clues from the various scraps they can find. Finding a scroll is a treasure. Finding an actual spellbook is a treasure of nearly unimagineable value- as important to a spellcaster as a relic or artifact.

As such, I epect extraordinary risk-taking when one may be obtained, and squabbles over those that are found.

Depending upon the PCs (and their players), this will also have serious implications on how much sharing will occur. Will they find it more advantageous to share spells or hoard their knowledge?

I expect most players to try for plain vanilla spells, but the power gamers will take a stab at the harder to learn non-PHB spells, some Metamagically altered ones, and Opposed school spells. Some of them may also opt for weakened versions of certain spells to fill in gaps in their learning curves.

If I were able to do the same thing to innate or divine spellcasters, I would, but I have no real campaign rationale to do this.

Players who aren't keen on the system's strengths and weaknesses will opt for Sorcerers and other non-academic spellcasters. OTOH, they won't be able to learn the metamagically altered spells except under the most unusual circumstances.

And my guess is that a good player may be able to use this system to create some nice effects...

 

[Drawmack]

So making the non-PHB spells 25% harder isn't a big deal for you as you want them to be a lot harder to learn.

Just one last question. Specialist Adjustment is now 1d6 but opposed school is still 2d4 is this intentional or an accidental oversight?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, you convinced me that +3d4 was a bit extreme, so I chopped it down a tad to +2d4...but still high enough to keep gaining an opposed school spell fairly difficult.

The -1d6, OTOH, while smaller than the original -2d4 Specialist adjustment, is still an average roll of 3.5. The Specialist will find those 0-1st level school spells easier to learn than the regular PHB spells on average, and 2nd level ones only slightly more difficult.

I am, however, still toying with dropping the base non-PHB spell DC to DC18 as opposed to DC15. While non-PHB spells were rare, EVERYTHING written is rare in this campaign world...

 

[Drawmack]

It's up to you. With an 18 base it will be 15% harder to lern non-PHB spells, with a 20 base it will be 25% harder to learn. It's all in how rare you want these spells to be.

You did bring up an interesting point earlier though. If someone in the party already knows a spell does another caster get a reduction to the DC (kind of like a helping out or synergy bonus) to learn said spell?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Effectively, yes. In those cases, they'll use the default rules for spell transcription. Anything you can actually transcribe from- a found scroll or a fellow PC's spellbook- has everything you need to know to copy a spell into your spellbook. No research is needed.

The rules here are just for gaining your "per level" spells, since (because of the catastrophe) there is a virtual absence of any written spell research to be found. The spellcaster is essentially discovering the spells all over again. In a sense, think of these guys as being the creators of a new PHB...doing the equivalent of rediscovering the knowledge lost when the Library of Alexandria was burned to the ground.