Alter Self give you different equipment?

[Murrdox]

But if it Feels like a halbred...Weighs like a halberd...even if it uses the same proficiency as a halberd (which personally i don't think it should)...should it do damage like a halberd, do everything exactly as a normal halberd would do...
Possibly an Official response is needed to clear this up

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...

This argument doesn't work for most D&D situations involving magic.

Afterall, if you polymorph a Dire Bear into an Elf... it looks like an elf, talks like an elf (well... sorta), and smells like an elf...

But you still can't cast "Charm Person" on it... because it's still a Dire Bear.

So... by D&D logic, a dagger can look, feel, and act just like a Halberd... but still NOT be a Halberd.

It's Magic! W00t!

 

[LokiDR]

But if it Feels like a halbred...Weighs like a halberd...even if it uses the same proficiency as a halberd (which personally i don't think it should)...should it do damage like a halberd, do everything exactly as a normal halberd would do...the same would go for the armour...doesn't matter it would seem if it was leather, NOW it's scale...it's metal...feels like metal...strong as metal...why would it protect you less if you happened to be proficient in using medium armour?!

Possibly an Official response is needed to clear this up

If I can give myself the scales of a dragon, but not gain any protection from them, armor that looks and feels like scalemail can protect like leather.

 

[greycastle]

If I can give myself the scales of a dragon, but not gain any protection from them...

Then what possible 'practical' reason could you have for giving yourself scales of a dragon? It would seem to me, that during that time that you have those scales, you Should infact gain a natural armour bonus...

but as this could be abused, possibly some sort of preventive measure could be put, WITHOUT resorting simply to houserules...

If from the sage advice it says you can gain claw attacks, what is to stop you gaining natural armour? if you can gain gills, what is to stop you from gaining a tail?...

however, with the latter "gaining a tail" you would not be proficient with it, and so could not gain an attack, if normally you could have one...or at best/worst, you could gain an attack if you used a full round action with no 5ft step, to simply attack once with your tail...
but following this logic, it would seem, if you were proficient with say Fullplate armour, and transformed yourself into a knight wearing fullplate armour, you would gain simply the benefits of your material possession (though i personally would never let this extend to a stage where people can Alter Self to aquire a +5 adamantium greatsword/fullplate....

If it feels like a halberd, would it not weigh as a halberd? and despite this magic thing, would you then say that dropping the halberd on another person, would simply result in the person feeling as if they were hit by a dagger?!

 

[Hypersmurf]

If from the sage advice it says you can gain claw attacks, what is to stop you gaining natural armour?

Uh, the bit in the text of the spell where it says "Your natural armor bonus does not change"?

Just because the Sage makes one mistake isn't a license to make more and call them official...

-Hyp.

 

[greycastle]

My apologies all...i was greiviously mistaken :S

however...this still hasn't cleared up the original question...
how does your 'new' equipment function at least? as it used to? or differently? or is it simply 'magic'?...

think along the lines of a creature that can alter self at will, ie. succubus

 

[Murrdox]

how does your 'new' equipment function at least? as it used to? or differently? or is it simply 'magic'?...

think along the lines of a creature that can alter self at will, ie. succubus

Your new equipment functions just like your old equipment. You basically end up with a "Halberd-Shaped" dagger. It's still a dagger... it's just shaped like a Halberd. So, it uses the dagger's proficiency, damage, critical threat, etc.

However, I could see allowing you to gain some of the mundane ABILITIES of other weapons. For example, if you Alter-Self, and change your dagger into a Reach weapon. It will still do dagger damage, but now it's an unusually LONG dagger, so you could make reach attacks with it. Similar, I could see allowing changing a dagger into a flail to get the +2 to disarm checks. You'd still do dagger damage in both these cases though.

Alter-Self is really weird, IMO. Its uses are almost always "DM's call" in our campaigns. It's more than an illusion... but it's less than polymorph. The spell isn't COMPLETELY clear about what the limitations of Alter Self are, IMO.

 

[Belbarrus]

Have you ever seen the movie X-Men? The Alter Self ability is sort of like Mystique's ability. She could take on the form of Wolverine and even mimic his claws, but her claws were not really adamantium (sp?). Basically her body mimics the shape and texture of what she is turning into.
Alter self lets you develope functional gills and even wings because these things have the strength and texture of normal flesh anyway. Changing your appearance to look like Full plate however, you would still have the strength of whatever you really were wearing.

 

[Murrdox]

The Alter Self ability is sort of like Mystique's ability. She could take on the form of Wolverine and even mimic his claws, but her claws were not really adamantium

Great analogy Belbarrus!

So when players ask you if they can use "Alter Self" to do something, just put it through the "Mystique test". Can Mystique do it? If not, it's beyond the capabilities of Alter Self.

Of course, this doesn't work for the Dagger into a Halberd scenario... because it is the equipment that is changing, not the user herself. It still sort of helps visualize how it should work though.

 

[LokiDR]

Then what possible 'practical' reason could you have for giving yourself scales of a dragon? It would seem to me, that during that time that you have those scales, you Should infact gain a natural armour bonus...

The reason is simple: appear as something you are not, even to the touch. The first use of Alter Self is disguise. It has some side benifits too, but those are limited.

Hyp: I don't think the Sage made a mistake in saying you could create working claws with Alter Self. If this was being abused, you could just say "the spell does not give you proficency with claws, take a -4 on all attacks". If they take exotic weapon proficency, 1d3 damage is fine. The have at least 3 levels of caster to do this, so it can't be all that broken.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp: I don't think the Sage made a mistake in saying you could create working claws with Alter Self.

"You do not gain the attack forms of the chosen form."

If I turn into a minotaur, "Gore" is an attack form. If I turn into a whale, "Tail Slap" is an attack form.

"Claws" is an attack form.

You don't gain the attack forms of the chosen form.

-Hyp.