Alternate Bard

[Machiavelli]

Thinking about it more, I'd suggest just making the bard more "skald-like."

Get rid of spellcasting and give the Bard martial weapons and full BAB.

That way you have a musical fighter-type with low HD and a full BAB; I like it.

Compares pretty closely to the Ranger.

That's called using your thinking cap. Nobody can just hand you these things for free without knowing what design goals you have. If a bard who swings a sword is alright by you, then go ahead and swap spellcasting for sword-swinging. As sword-swinging requires taking actions, it meets the general guidelines I suggested. No need to get testy just because I haven't thrown fully formed ideas at your waiting feet.

 

[two]

That's called using your thinking cap. Nobody can just hand you these things for free without knowing what design goals you have. If a bard who swings a sword is alright by you, then go ahead and swap spellcasting for sword-swinging. As sword-swinging requires taking actions, it meets the general guidelines I suggested. No need to get testy just because I haven't thrown fully formed ideas at your waiting feet.

Oh I am not testy; I just don't know what standard actions you could add in normal D&D which would replace spellcasting but burn up actions.

I was more thinking aloud than attempting to bust you.

 

[two]

One possible approach is to go with a skills-based character. Other than losing spells, change nothing except:

Give 8 (or maybe even 10!!) skill points per level.

At certain points give them Rogue-like take 10 abilities. Maybe at level 5 and 10, or even 5, 10 and 15.

Other skill bonuses of one type or another might be appropriate, too.

Possibly some free skill-based feats. Maybe even something unique.

Let them take 10 on some skills that do not allow take 10 normally.

Things like that.

I think Complete Adventurer has a skill-based prestige class - that's another possible place to go for inspiration.

The trouble is that skills often...well... they are not that powerful. Even if you have high skill values... you need to have the chance to use the skill, which might not happen often.

Typically, level 3+ spells are much more powerful and duplicate the abilities of a high level of skill. Hide or improved invisibility? etc.

I like the idea of taking 10 on many skills... that would be a way to make it more useful for sure... or perhaps allows skills to be used for related but not specifically the precise skill?

Add your bard level to any skill check... include some sort of skill that adds to melee or ranged damage, making the bard not useless in combat? There is some precedent for this...

 

[Artoomis]

What is it you want this Bard to be?

A more combat-effective Bard (BAB and such, maybe)?

A more effective out-of-combat Bard (skills)?

A more powerful party-support (Bardi Music) Bard?

 

[Machiavelli]

No problem, two. We haven't heard from Midnight Dawns exactly what sort of bardic character he'd like. As such, I was being general in my suggestion. You took the approach of specificity, which is possibly more useful.

To get specific, I think I'd like to look through the Bard's spell list first, and figure out what sorts of roles he/she can fill by casting those spells. Then I would choose one, or a few, of those roles that would be appropriate, and I'd add abilities that emulate the effects of those spells.

If a flexible, adapable Bard is preferred, then spellcasting is probably the way to go.

 

[Artoomis]

The trouble is that skills often...well... they are not that powerful. Even if you have high skill values... you need to have the chance to use the skill, which might not happen often.

Typically, level 3+ spells are much more powerful and duplicate the abilities of a high level of skill. Hide or improved invisibility? etc.

I like the idea of taking 10 on many skills... that would be a way to make it more useful for sure... or perhaps allows skills to be used for related but not specifically the precise skill?

Add your bard level to any skill check... include some sort of skill that adds to melee or ranged damage, making the bard not useless in combat? There is some precedent for this...

A character who can max out Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, a Knowledge skill or two, Use Magic Device, Perform (various), Gather Information and Spot (not a class skill, but you could change that - maybe every skill shoudl be a class skill) and Listen would be awesome indeed.

His speciality would not be combat, but combat avoidance though early detection (Spot and Listen) and negotiaion (Diplomcay, Bluff and Sense Motive) and maybe Tumble to stay out of the way.

He could also use his Knowledge skills to let the party know about the weaknesses of whet they are facing, and Bardic Music to buff up the party for combat.

This has a lot of potential, but may not be your style.

 

[two]

What is it you want this Bard to be?

A more combat-effective Bard (BAB and such, maybe)?

A more effective out-of-combat Bard (skills)?

A more powerful party-support (Bardi Music) Bard?

That's a good point. If it's combat, full BAB + Martial Weapons is an easy fix.

If it's skills... give them 10/level, allow taking 10...throw them a combat bone of some sort...

Party support? Just increase all the normal bardic abilities a good bit.

 

[two]

A character who can max out Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, a Knowledge skill or two, Use Magic Device, Perform (various), Gather Information and Spot (not a class skill, but you could change that - maybe every skill shoudl be a class skill) and Listen would be awesome indeed.

His speciality would not be combat, but combat avoidance though early detection (Spot and Listen) and negotiaion (Diplomcay, Bluff and Sense Motive) and maybe Tumble to stay out of the way.

He could also use his Knowledge skills to let the party know about the weaknesses of whet they are facing, and Bardic Music to buff up the party for combat.

This has a lot of potential, but may not be your style.

It's just no fun when a PC is totally helpless when combat rolls around, because that is the core of the D&D XP system.

A skill monkey bard with no spells would be pretty hard pressed to survive in combat as anything other than a 3rd rate archer.

I'd like to make the skill monkey bard qualify as a 2nd rate archer, at least. Not much better, but a little better than standard.

Possibly allow something as basic as the "archery" skill which increases arrow damage slowly as ranks go up; allows for trick shots, etc.

 

[Artoomis]

It's just no fun when a PC is totally helpless when combat rolls around, because that is the core of the D&D XP system.

A skill monkey bard with no spells would be pretty hard pressed to survive in combat...

First, the XP system is not based upon combat, but upon overcoming challenges. Avoiding combat can give just as many XP as winning the battle.

Second, the concept is character who avoids comabt, and, when pressed, serves as support for others and does not actually engage in personal combat.

This can be a very workable and fun concept, but is not for everyone.

 

[Mistwell]

If you are going to remove spells, you should heavily add to what bardic music can do, and the number of bardic music uses per day a bard gets. Like someone else suggested, I would look to the PRC for a bard that ends spell progression while adding to bardic music variations.

I would also increase the effects of the existing bardic music. Like advance the inspire courage increases to happen more frequently.