D&D General Alternate thought - rule of cool is bad for gaming

[TiQuinn]

The DM I had at the con was an experienced, professional DM. They leaned into what they termed the rule of cool just as much as the OP's DM. In many ways he was a fantastic DM, he just wasn't the right DM for me. So is his definition of the rule of cool also incorrect? Who gets to decide?

It’s going to vary by table and DM. Obviously you get to decide going forward that you won’t play with him any longer knowing now how he applies it.

Which is why I keep harping on the fact that we have no definition of what the rule of cool means and how it's misleading and annoying to lump everything together. There's a massive difference between allowing improvised actions not explicitly covered by the rules to ignore the rules of the game completely and let the player do what they want if it is fun for the player.

And we never will have a formal definition because it’s something that has been adopted by the community and is similar to rule zero.

The rule of cool has such broad definitions. So if the OP's experience and my experience are not rule of cool (even though the DM I had would disagree with you) what are they? Because the style isn't inherently bad, it's just that our experiences went too far on the spectrum of "follow the rules" to "always say yes" for us. We are arguing about different things, you seem to want the rule of cool to mean any and all improvised actions, the way I've seen people use the rule of cool goes far beyond that.

It’s as I said - a bad call perhaps by a bad or inexperienced DM.

I think “rule of cool” is when a player argues for an impossible or unlikely action on the grounds that it would be something cool within the greater story as it’s happening in the game. It’s an appeal to the DM to use rule zero in the player’s favor. Most of the time it should still require a roll.

I’ll give you an example of my favorite “rule of cool.” Our group was fighting a bunch of mercenaries and it was a difficult fight with one PC down, and a bad guy who was doing a good amount of damage from some cover reloading a heavy crossbow. For whatever reason, the DM said that the bandit was using a hand winch and was knocking the bolt into place. The party’s thief (yes, it was 2e) was going before him but was not in range to really attack. He asked if he could use his chime of opening to cause the bolt mechanism to release prematurely, basically causing the guy to lose a turn reloading. Should a chime of opening be able to do that? You can argue the mechanism is a lock of sorts…maybe? Definitely not what was envisioned in the description of the magic item. But it was clever, concise, and tactical and the DM decided “that’s also just cool.” Guy misfires, goes “oh crap”, tries to reload again and the party’s fighter takes him out next round.

 

[Oofta]

I don't quite understand the point of these posts. Upthread, someone posted that you can’t reasonably have rules for everything. I pointed out a counter-example. (There are others, too, but I pointed out a fairly well-known one.)

Are you two disagreeing with my counter-example? Or do you agree that it is a counter-example, but want a different one that will suit your approach to RPGs?

I asked how a different system worked and said that to me it's just a different roll of the dice and different modifiers. That it wasn't much different than ability check + proficiency potentially modified by advantage/disadvantage. I was replying to a post that said that it was different because the player, not the GM sets the parameters.

So all I was saying was that while there are different approaches it still came down to a roll of the dice modified by some number. How you get there doesn't really change the end result and neither is superior, just different.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I asked how a different system worked and said that to me it's just a different roll of the dice and different modifiers. That it wasn't much different than ability check + proficiency potentially modified by advantage/disadvantage. I was replying to a post that said that it was different because the player, not the GM sets the parameters.

So all I was saying was that while there are different approaches it still came down to a roll of the dice modified by some number. How you get there doesn't really change the end result and neither is superior, just different.

What I was mostly getting at (and I admit it was muddled and I apologize) is simply that IMO PBtA games are apples and oranges to D&D-like games in many regards, and the kind of comparison you're suggesting is not really valuable to me.

 

[Oofta]

It’s going to vary by table and DM. Obviously you get to decide going forward that you won’t play with him any longer knowing now how he applies it.



And we never will have a formal definition because it’s something that has been adopted by the community and is similar to rule zero.



It’s as I said - a bad call perhaps by a bad or inexperienced DM.

Which is what I disagree with. My DM was not inexperienced. They were not a bad DM. They just had a style that didn't work for me. They stated that their philosophy was the game should be run by the rule of cool. Which to him meant ignore the rules completely even for things covered (like the OP) because it was fun for the player.

You keep blaming bad DMing. It's not. It's just different, and mismatching, expectations.

I think “rule of cool” is when a player argues for an impossible or unlikely action on the grounds that it would be something cool within the greater story as it’s happening in the game. It’s an appeal to the DM to use rule zero in the player’s favor. Most of the time it should still require a roll.

I’ll give you an example of my favorite “rule of cool.” Our group was fighting a bunch of mercenaries and it was a difficult fight with one PC down, and a bad guy who was doing a good amount of damage from some cover reloading a heavy crossbow. For whatever reason, the DM said that the bandit was using a hand winch and was knocking the bolt into place. The party’s thief (yes, it was 2e) was going before him but was not in range to really attack. He asked if he could use his chime of opening to cause the bolt mechanism to release prematurely, basically causing the guy to lose a turn reloading. Should a chime of opening be able to do that? You can argue the mechanism is a lock of sorts…maybe? Definitely not what was envisioned in the description of the magic item. But it was clever, concise, and tactical and the DM decided “that’s also just cool.” Guy misfires, goes “oh crap”, tries to reload again and the party’s fighter takes him out next round.

The OP's example and my example, are instances where the rule of cool was used as an excuse to allow the PC to do something they thought was fun. They were also actions that are covered by the rules. Your chime of opening example? I probably wouldn't have allowed it for multiple reasons but it's not really the same thing. It's not 2+2 to equal 7 because 7 is more fun for the player, it's 2+2=misfire. It's different from clearly spelled out jump or grapple rules.

There is nothing wrong with a gonzo game that ignores the rules of the game if it's what you want. I don't, the OP didn't. These things should be discussed ahead of time and the group should come to a consensus of what kind of game they want to play, if they can't come to consensus then it's not a good fit.

 

[Oofta]

What I was mostly getting at (and I admit it was muddled and I apologize) is simply that IMO PBtA games are apples and oranges to D&D-like games in many regards, and the kind of comparison you're suggesting is not really valuable to me.

That's all I'm trying to say as well. You can't really compare the two and say one is inherently better than the other because it always comes back to better for whom.

I understand the appeal of PbtA games, they just aren't for me.

 

[TiQuinn]

Which is what I disagree with. My DM was not inexperienced. They were not a bad DM.

You keep blaming bad DMing. It's not. It's just different, and mismatching, expectations.

If it’s confusing for you, it’s because you keep conflating your experience with the OP’s experience, so maybe don’t do that unless that’s secretly your alt account? Based on the OP’s post, it sounds like a bad DM. Can I be 100% sure of that? No. But likewise, said DM isn’t here to give their version of events either so .

The OP's example and my example, are instances where the rule of cool was used as an excuse to allow the PC to do something they thought was fun. They were also actions that are covered by the rules. Your chime of opening example? I probably wouldn't have allowed it for multiple reasons but it's not really the same thing. It's not 2+2 to equal 7 because 7 is more fun for the player, it's 2+2=misfire. It's different from clearly spelled out jump or grapple rules.

Yes, and as I have also said, bad calls happen.

They happen by bad DMs, by inexperienced DMs and even by good DMs. Any DM who says they haven’t made a bad ruling at some point is full of it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

What I was mostly getting at (and I admit it was muddled and I apologize) is simply that IMO PBtA games are apples and oranges to D&D-like games in many regards, and the kind of comparison you're suggesting is not really valuable to me.

You misattributed that, Micah.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You misattributed that, Micah.

What do you mean? Happy to apologize, but not sure what I did wrong.

 

[Oofta]

If it’s confusing for you, it’s because you keep conflating your experience with the OP’s experience, so maybe don’t do that unless that’s secretly your alt account? Based on the OP’s post, it sounds like a bad DM. Can I be 100% sure of that? No. But likewise, said DM isn’t here to give their version of events either so .



Yes, and as I have also said, bad calls happen.

They happen by bad DMs, by inexperienced DMs and even by good DMs. Any DM who says they haven’t made a bad ruling at some point is full of it.

There's no reason to believe the OPs DM was inexperienced. His DM allowed things on a similar scale to mine. In my case it was a professional DM. He did not make "a bad call", he knew what he was doing and was clear from the start that it was the type of game he ran. He made other similar calls for our group and another group he was running. It just wasn't a style of game I wanted to play.

I don't know why you refuse to accept that to some people the rule of cool justifies ignoring the rules of the game if they think it will lead to a better game. I'm done.

 

[Thomas Shey]

What do you mean? Happy to apologize, but not sure what I did wrong.

My bad. Read two things in a row and conflated them. Ignore me.