Alternative Feat Concept [Scaling Feat Chains]

[NexusX]

Well, Nyaricus, I've been hanging around the EN boards for quite some time (and have been DMing since 1979) ... but I didn't realize I hadn't actually been posting on EN! I post on a few sites, but not too often. I keep very busy. Teaming up on this system sounds very tempting, however. Yesterday I thought about starting over from scratch in the "Scaling Feat Chain" as you called it (I'd just call it a Feat Chain myself), so I copied the entire WOTC FEAT list with summaries into MSWord and it was a wopping 56 pages or so (and this doesn't even include the actual feat descriptions!) Seems the last time I considered fleshing out the system, it had half that many feats - or less. It is a daunting task, Nyaricus, though one I feel that is worth the time. I'm just concerned that with being so busy (and going out of town for 2 weeks coming up) that my contributions would be slow in coming.

Step 1: There are several things we have to ask ourselves (after tackling the "Do I really have time for this question," like do we include in our system just WOTC FEATS (I prefer this if only to reduce the number of feats) or open it up to all feats (some 3rd party sources have good feats, others are lacking or may be redundant) Also, could epic feats be worked into the system as the final rank (pre reqs still in place of course) as the 5th rank in each chain or kept separate as epic feats (I haven't really checked out the epic feats much, so they may be too much a jump). Just typing this whole thing in is very time consuming (yes, I know, it'd be a labor of love). Some of these fonts are on WOTC, but I did a sample search and it took almost as long as just copying them out of the book (at least for me).

Another issue is how to handle when we have 3 or 4 feats that basically do the same thing or would also fit a particular chain theme (just dump them or turn them into 2 similar chains?). We would need to settle on a consistent naming schema and decide how to track renamed feats. Are we sure someone hasn't already done much of this legwork? This ought to be a netbook or something, but of course legally, you probably can't even post all of the feats ... so inclusion of feats based on OGL or whatever is another consideration. Thoughts?

NexusX

 

[Nyaricus]

double post. Please ignore.

 

[Nyaricus]

NexusX, i say let's do it!!

I see no problem with us at least starting this boulder rolling. In the future, we may even see more help coming in from other people, or submissions from others who have started/finsished something similar. Yes, it would be a labour of love, but what's wrong with that? Nothing. I'd love to be working with people who are just as passionate on a subject as i am - thats why i love EN World in general. You get great, critical, feedback here. My players/friends are simply not 'nerdy' enough to try anything like this. So, in short, I'd love working with you on this.

Balance issues will come with each step, but that's natural. On to your other questions.

WOTC feats only, or WOTC and 3rd Party feats

Lets stick with WOTC feats only; at least for version 1.0 (yes, i am already assisgning versions). If there is a feat that will fill a niche perfectly, and it is 3rd Party, then i see no problem adding it in. But, for starters, WOTC feats only. Perhaps the first thing to do would be to post the full list of feats up, so we can keep track of them. When the WOTC feats summary page is updated, we will have to update our page with it, to keep it concise. I am not saying that WOTC will be perfect in their feats included, but i think they have most of the core concepts covered, so there shouldn't be much of a problem in tracking if we have all the bases covered for feat concepts.

Epic feats as the 5th and final mastery of a feat chain

I LOVE this idea, i simply adore it!!! It is a done deal, my friend. Perhaps 'Epic xxx MAstery' will do for terms . . . speaking of which:

What shall be the naming schema?

For the concept in its whole, 'Scaling Feat Chain' is a name i like because it differenticates itself from the standard idea of 'feat chains.' This is different, and so it should be named differently.

For feats in specific, I like my suggestion in the first entry simply because it allows feats to be "standardized for once (in both function, pre-reques and naming)," as I put it. I simply expanded on what WotC has put forth in a few different examples (mainly with Two-weapon fighting feat chain, and others as well). So, i say we make this system look like this:

1. [feat name]
2. Improved [feat name]
3. Greater [feat name]
4. [feat name] Mastery
5. Epic [feat name] Mastery

now, if you understood what i was getting at, there would be three types of feats/feat chains under this system, if i am not mistaken.

1. Some feats would have feat chains going through to the Epic [feat name] Mastery rank.
2. Some feats would allow you to improve upon another ability/feat you already have. These would only give you a rank of 'Improved [ability/feat name]'.
3. Some feats are stand-alone, like Maximize Spell, etc. These wouldn't have any further progression.

-if there are any more 'feat concepts, let me know-

how will we track re-named feats

we will post a list of WOTC's feats, and in [brackets] tick off when we are done with a feat, and give any further info for it (ie, if it is in a feat chain now, not availiable any more, give the new name for it, etc etc).

has someone done this yet

no idfea > that's why we are here, aren't we?? Let's not worry about this detail. If someone chimes in and tell us that it's already out there, we'll DL it or buy it, check it out, and see whether it sinks or floats. Simple as that.

can we even post all these feats legally

ummm, again, i am in the dark. Since we don't plan to sell this or anything, adn since we'd be mostly referring to the feats only by name, and not using flavour text, etc, i think we'd be okay here. This is a fan website, and we are the fans - doing what fans do best - critque something, and decide they could do it better (jk, jk). Feats are such an awesome addition to this game, we can't help but what to work out all the little mechanics and such.

 

[NexusX]

Very well, Nyaricus, sounds good. I mentioned the legalities (word?) as I thought you might want to actually have something printable that included the full descriptions. Just making a list should be fine with all involved and certainly easier than what I had in mind. As not all of the players in my Stargate: Cosmothea campaign have access to the different books in which these feats are derived, I was planning on putting together a feat book for them, eventually ... but wait a minute ... I don't have all the books either! So, I wouldn't be able to do much on the books I don't have other than make suggestions based on summary grouping.

Now then, Nyaricus, the naming schema and ranks sounds fine (we might want to play with a feat name if it's too obscure, but that is for later, and might not come up anyway). As for posting the list of feats on EN, as I said in my earlier post, the list is just plain way too long (56+ pages - I love feats, but nobody really needs 56+ pages! I'm thinking with this system, it will also shed light on some feats people might not have been aware of before, due to the shear numbers). I think it would be better to just list Scaling Feat Chains we have developed, their associated feats, and previous names (maybe also the book we got them out of). We should also post which chain we are working on to minimize duplication.

Once a chain is posted, it can be reviewed and we'll modify it as needed then slap some kind of official doohickey on it or put it into a new thread of official Scaling Font Chains or?? Thoughts anyone else? This shouldn't be as difficult as I thought - at least not the list process (certainly less work than my original idea for my players). I'm in.
Nexus X

 

[NexusX]

3. Some feats are stand-alone, like Maximize Spell, etc. These wouldn't have any further progression.

This will probably show my age, Nyaricus, but I remember a time when the DMG didn't exist. All I owned was the "blue book" from D&D, the AD&D Monster Manual and AD&D Player's Handbook circa 1978 or '79. TSR was busily at work on the first AD&D DMG (I think East-Coasters got it long before most of us West-Coasters here in America. I know my cousin in Virginia got his DMG more than a year before I could get mine, and I was on a list - a long list). During that very long wait, without any combat rules, etc., and having lost my "blue book" at school with it's simplified system, I wrote my own DMG (It was shorter, only 125 pages). I spent several years creating my own rpg after that (Stargate: Cosmothea, way back in the 80's) and considered myself a game designer. I'd also made a half dozen or so board game designs so sometimes I like to tweak the rules just because I can and it's now in my blood. I have to stop myself sometimes from changing a rule ... but I'll be good. The first thing I did when D&D 3.0 came out was start making my Feat Families system, organizing all those feats like we're talking about now. But I tossed the very incomplete system out when 3.5 came out and thought I'd start fresh, by the book. No changes. That lasted about 3 months. Then it was back to house rules.

Why did I get into this? Because your #3 above will probably be expanded in my own campaign for some SFC (scaling Feat Chains) like I started doing it way back when. Not sure if anyone else will do this type of thing (I imagine some will). In my personal list, I would probably have a Maximized Spell that can be further maximized, with stricter pre req's of course. I would make little changes like that (not necc. to that particular one. I'd review each, which I haven't done yet). But for the purposes of this community project, Nyaricus, I am not opposed to making stand-alone feats as this is easier, and less controversial. I might also make feats that go up to Greater xx feat, rather than stopping at improved, but again, I can add that to my private list.

What else to cover before we begin?
NexusX

 

[Nyaricus]

NexusX, just checking to make sure we are on the same page here for this all . . . When you talk about "full descriptions" what do you mean? My idea is to set up these feat chains in much the way i did in my first post for the weapon focus chain - nothing else. I know that seems kinda raw, and such, but it all does the same thing in the end, after all. Are we on the same page here?

okay, no posting the full list. yeah, i was being a bit too . . . far-reaching with that one . . . some reason i was thinking 5-6 when typing, when i had just seen your "56" a moment before. heh heh.

for feat chains that we are working on, just post a new reply that says only

-working on _______ feat chain-

will post ASAP.

then, when you are done, just edit the feat chain into that post. we'll do all the balance/flavour/etc discussions here, adn i think it would be reasonable to make a new thread with "official" Scaling feat chains, once the kinks are worked out ( i was actually going to suggest this when after i got your response back, but you already addressed this issue - kudos.

Sound good, thus far??

 

[Nyaricus]

Why did I get into this? Because your #3 above will probably be expanded in my own campaign for some SFC (scaling Feat Chains) like I started doing it way back when. Not sure if anyone else will do this type of thing (I imagine some will). In my personal list, I would probably have a Maximized Spell that can be further maximized, with stricter pre req's of course. I would make little changes like that (not necc. to that particular one. I'd review each, which I haven't done yet). But for the purposes of this community project, Nyaricus, I am not opposed to making stand-alone feats as this is easier, and less controversial. I might also make feats that go up to Greater xx feat, rather than stopping at improved, but again, I can add that to my private list.

Well, mainly, number 3 was there for simplicities sake. You can, and could easily expand many feats into feat chains - but i don't know how far you'd want to take it. I mean, if you et Improved Initiative - why would you get Greater Initiative for +8 to Initiative (personally, that'd be too much, IMO, but just saying, for saying's sake)? I don't know - is initiative that big of a deal? for some, yes. I could see a few pally's wanting to get that feat, if only to charge in and smite a foe, etc. I dunno, we will have to take this case-by-case, IMO - but for simplicities sake, lets try to keep this simple!!!

As for going with greater instead of improved, here's my opinion on it. the Epic (#5) feat shouldn't really count as a balance here - it will only be appicable in epic games, which are not everyone's thing. So, with the Selection of feats from 1-4, only going up to Improved xxx (aka #2) makes sense for me (only reaching half of your 'potential', although potential isnt the right word . . .).

Sorry that that wasn't very clear at all . . .but i hope you get the idea of what i am getting at. Regardless, feel free to keep your own notes for anything here - i just want to keep this as easily intergratable as possible, and as standard as possible.

 

[NexusX]

Nyaricus ... I've been slammed doing homework for an Advanced Web Design class so I haven't been able to reply as fast as I wanted ... sorry. Yep ... we're on the same page, in all respects, near as I can tell. I'm going out of town in a few days, and I don't have my books on me at the moment, so I can't grab a feat chain this second, but I will soon and get started (I'll post which one I'm tackling, like you suggested, once I get near my books). Oh, just remembered one - Mounted Combat. Ok, I'll do that first. YIKES ... did I say Mounted Combat? Looks like there are 3 paths to the 2nd stage and no 4th stage. I'll toy with it and see if I come up with anything.

NexusX

 

[Nyaricus]

morning NexusX!

cool, i am glad we are on the same page here - i have abstained from posting anything till i was sure of that.

I finally got my copy of Iron Heroes. While it doesn't necesarily do everything we want (as in follow the core rules in regards to feats . . kinda an obscure concept . . .) i think it will help us make some judgement calls here. Since it has been O.K.'ed by Monte himself, i think thats a safe bet - but i say we stick to staying as close to the core feat concepts as we can. [FYI, Iron Heroes has 10 as the length of it's feat chains (for the max), so there's alot of other stuff i will have to get through to see what's what.]

Anyways, i will also be busy for the next while . . . work, work, night off/prepping for D&D, work in the morning/D&D in the evening and then work again, so i will be a bit busy I will try to post up some stuff ASAP. Not sure what i'll work on first, but i will soon.

Goodnight!!!

 

[NexusX]

Hey Nyaricus,

Iron Heroes, huh? Sounds fun. I can't say as I'll be getting that one for awhile - being about ready to go on vacation, I can't spend the extra cash. There's so many books out there - and I've got many of them, but I can't afford them all. My next book won't even be D&D (Mutants & Masterminds 2nd Ed. and that'll probably be a Christmas gift from my Mom), but I've got a couple D&D books on my X-mas list, and some of those wonderful miniatures from WOTC!
Now, if only I could find more time to play!

NexusX