D&D 5E Alternative Initiative: try this

[Inconnunom]

I am always baffled by the new ideas I still get from other people games after years of gaming...the "one color dice" per character is brilliant!

Even if I must say that we usually roll once at a time, so it's not so needed to distinguish results, but surely is useful for the "where's my lucky 20?" things!

True but if anyone needs to borrow for advantage or disadvantage or is trying to see on the battle map where their character is in relation to others, it is just that much quicker to be able to have a visual cue.

One question: how did you get your players to manage their preferences? As far as dice are concerned, I have all kinds of players, the one using the metal ones, the one liking pink-and-purple and so on...you get what I mean, I'm sure.

I have 10 different colored stands and told them to pick one that either matches their dice. The players are pretty easy going, I've told them first come first serve but they are generally willing to compromise. I also have a few sets for players who are newer and they can borrow dice that correspond to the stands.

As per the initiative cards, apart from the bloat of cards reducing tension, which I already said a lot about so not repeating, I fear that colors are worse than images for inspiration sake.

Once again...it will work for sure, only a little bit less intriguing, I think.

Two quick things:
First, I think I reduced the bloat pretty heavily with my model. Take a 5 player game for example. Lets say a ranger (17 dex), a rogue (17 dex), a barb (12 dex), wizard (8 dex), and warlock (10 dex). That would be 3 cards each for ranger and rogue (until they reach 18 dex for the +4 init) and 2 for each of the wizard, barb, and warlock.
12 cards (plus a few for monster groups) isn't so difficult to run through quickly and is easy to shuffle.

Second, I don't think of initiative has an immersion aspect so much as a DM tool to figure out the order for people to play. While it is fun to have custom cards depicting the classes, what value do I add if I hold up a small, busy card that is difficult to see, even more so if your group is like mine (6 players) across a big table? Not nitpicking just being analytical.

Using the example of the blue player from earlier, if I want to add immersion I would hold the blue card up and say something like, "Cornelius, your warhammer reels back from the rebound of your last blow, your body is full of momentum what are you going to do next?"

Or if it's been a many more cards than usual since the blue players turn, "Cornelius, that warhammer blow was devastating and was difficult to recover from but now you have your feet planted and are ready."


Also thanks for the feedback I'm happy to add value to the conversation

 

[Fabio Andrea Rossi]

You're more than welcome! Furthermore it's Morrus's home, not mine

For the cards colors you have a point if you have a large group spread around a big table, yes, colors will be far easier, true. My cards are very intricated and It would not be easy to see at a glance who's in the image. But, I find a certain charm in having all of them a little bent over to see the next card...it's part of the reason I enjoy the system, it brings not only quickness & attention & tactical diversity but also a little more excitement.

It may just be the new thing, of course...but I have a feeling this is here to stay. FOr the same reason, the less cards you have, the better. Why do you need 2 cards for the 10 dex Warlock or 8 dex Wizard? You are giving them an advantage only as opposed to monsters, many of which will probably have higher Dex. I may be wrong but this may bring to your players giving less attention to a card, especially once their turn is gone, with many uneffective cards. Even if, I understand it's not a long thing to do to discard them.

Let us know how it works! It's new territory so any experience counts

 

[Inconnunom]

It may just be the new thing, of course...but I have a feeling this is here to stay. FOr the same reason, the less cards you have, the better. Why do you need 2 cards for the 10 dex Warlock or 8 dex Wizard? You are giving them an advantage only as opposed to monsters, many of which will probably have higher Dex. I may be wrong but this may bring to your players giving less attention to a card, especially once their turn is gone, with many uneffective cards. Even if, I understand it's not a long thing to do to discard them.

Hmm, let me see if I can rephrase/reword it.
The amount of cards any PC or NPC would get would be as follows:
init of -2 or less (Dex <8) = 1 card
init of -1 to 1 (Dex 8-13) = 2 cards
init of 2 and 3 (Dex 14-17) = 3 cards
init of 4 and 5 (Dex 18-21) = 4 cards

Adding in Alert (+5 init)
init of 4 and 5 (Dex 8-11 + alert) = 4 cards
init of 6 and 7 (Dex 12-15 + alert) = 5 cards
init of 8 and 9 (Dex 16-19 + alert) = 6 cards
init of 10 and 11 (Dex 20-23 + alert) = 7 cards


Most casters will fall 2 cards. Dex Melee at 3 cards and exceptionally high skilled characters as 4. I don't forsee many people picking up the alert feat all the time. Even if you do, it is balanced by not being able to pick up other feats or ability scores (extra Dex).

Why I feel this number of cards is ideal. Like I mentioned before a group of 5 (two high dex, 3 average dex) would result in only 12 cards (3, 3, 2, 2, 2).
A goblin (or group) would have a dex of 14 (+2 mod) and would gets 3 cards for it. That brings the grand total to 15 cards.
What if you decide that you want 4 distinct goblins. At 3 cards a piece, it does start to get a little bloated with 12 total cards for the monster side. But 24 cards grand total between the two groups isn't THAT unwieldy. It depends on the DM and the PC group.
A different method would be group like-monsters together. So if you have 4 goblins and 2 bugbears (also dex of 14), the goblin group gets 3 cards total and the bugbears get 3 cards total. So it brings our total back down to 18 total cards. Very quick for so many turns (11 turns in total).

Using this number of cards, I'm trying to balance the d20 dice roll probability and the bloat of so many cards. But I'm open to suggestions and improvements as people experiment

 

[Psikerlord#]

True but if anyone needs to borrow for advantage or disadvantage or is trying to see on the battle map where their character is in relation to others, it is just that much quicker to be able to have a visual cue.



I have 10 different colored stands and told them to pick one that either matches their dice. The players are pretty easy going, I've told them first come first serve but they are generally willing to compromise. I also have a few sets for players who are newer and they can borrow dice that correspond to the stands.



Two quick things:
First, I think I reduced the bloat pretty heavily with my model. Take a 5 player game for example. Lets say a ranger (17 dex), a rogue (17 dex), a barb (12 dex), wizard (8 dex), and warlock (10 dex). That would be 3 cards each for ranger and rogue (until they reach 18 dex for the +4 init) and 2 for each of the wizard, barb, and warlock.
12 cards (plus a few for monster groups) isn't so difficult to run through quickly and is easy to shuffle.

Second, I don't think of initiative has an immersion aspect so much as a DM tool to figure out the order for people to play. While it is fun to have custom cards depicting the classes, what value do I add if I hold up a small, busy card that is difficult to see, even more so if your group is like mine (6 players) across a big table? Not nitpicking just being analytical.

Using the example of the blue player from earlier, if I want to add immersion I would hold the blue card up and say something like, "Cornelius, your warhammer reels back from the rebound of your last blow, your body is full of momentum what are you going to do next?"

Or if it's been a many more cards than usual since the blue players turn, "Cornelius, that warhammer blow was devastating and was difficult to recover from but now you have your feet planted and are ready."


Also thanks for the feedback I'm happy to add value to the conversation

Perhaps a black only picture on a coloured card. I myself very much like the picture aspect.

 

[camilaacolide]

Well, I just got home from my game. I've been DMing for years now, and after some time you naturally get this feeling of the things that are going to work with your group, and the things that aren't. I was expecting this card system to be a success. What I never expected was for it to be the mind-boggling overwhelming success that it was!

The players loved the cards. They never asked to be allowed to shuffle and draw the cards, they just assumed so and did this in my place during combat. I never once had to say "Your turn Thalon", they just celebrated when their card showed up and went straight to the description of the attack. They explicitly commented on the thrill of not knowing beforehand who was going to attack next, and the tension that build up until their card was drawn (again, during some of the draws, the group as a whole indeed celebrated when their card showed up). And they literally didn't allow me to take the cards back home when the game ended.

Technically speaking, there were two things that impressed me about the system (besides my players excitement):

1. When I used the normal dice system, I rolled initiative for groups of monsters instead of individually, in order to reduce the overhead. With this card system, I can basically just pack one card for each monster in the fight with zero overhead (no rolling, no order tracking). There was a continuous back and forth between sides really made the combat a lot more dynamic. I didn't expect this to happen beforehand.

2. The random combat order every round was great, and also with almost zero overhead (only the reshuffling). Combat became unexpected and surprising, and this naturally made everybody stay more alert than usual, making combat flow faster. Even more so when the very players were drawing cards and doing the reshuffling, and taking enemy cards out of the deck as combat went on. Which I loved because I had one less burden to manage.

To add fire to the discussion:

After trying the system firsthand, I can say that one of the things that really make it great is the speed and tension that it causes. During one combat, a player killed an enemy in the beginning of the round. When this enemy card showed up later in the round, the player tossed it across the table screaming "DEAD"!

This is something that wouldn't happen if the enemy card (or even the player's card) kept showing up multiple times. Each draw of the deck had value, no card was there uselessly. And in my humble opinion, I'd value this sensation much more than trying to be faithful to the rules by adding multiple cards. But, to each its own.

Fabio, thanks a lot for making my game much better!

-----

I printed a batch of 30 cards using the template I posted here. There were 5 PC heroes, 5 placeholder monsters, 5 faction information, and 15 NPCs/monsters for the Hoard of the Dragon Queen game. Some of them are below, together with some burned documents that the players found in the Dragon Hatchery.

 

[fjw70]

I tried this tonight and loved it as well. My players didn't like it as much. One player commented that she didn't like not knowing the round order ahead of time. We will use it another time or two and see how it goes.

Btw, I just used one card per player/monster and no one complained about the no differentiation due to Dex.

 

[camilaacolide]

I tried this tonight and loved it as well. My players didn't like it as much. One player commented that she didn't like not knowing the round order ahead of time. We will use it another time or two and see how it goes.

There was a suggestion in this thread where someone commented that after drawing the cards, you could leave them open and in order side-by-side. This way, from the second round onwards, the order of the round would be fixed and known to all. Maybe you might want to use this adjustment with your players!

Edit: Or, if you prefer, you could draw all the cards before the combat, and the order would be known since the beginning. This way you get the zero overhead benefit of the card system, with the predictability of the normal dice system!

 

[Sezarious]

How about this. To keep dex bonuses still relevant, the cards drawn are only ever one per player/ per monster, but anyone with a +1 dex bonus has their card 'hop' up in one position. The greater the persons dex, the further forward they hop.

A dex 20 assassin will therefore not be penalised under this system.

To simplify the maths though, the DM places cards equal to the number of players and monsters in the battle in the centre (labeled 1 to max). The party each draws a face down card from the centre with a number on it. Everyone adds that number plus their dex mod, highest number wins. The original initiative picture cards suggested by the OP are still used and are moved into the correct positions for the round. Battle continues.

 

[Coredump]

Hmm, let me see if I can rephrase/reword it.
The amount of cards any PC or NPC would get would be as follows:
init of -2 or less (Dex <8) = 1 card
init of -1 to 1 (Dex 8-13) = 2 cards
init of 2 and 3 (Dex 14-17) = 3 cards
init of 4 and 5 (Dex 18-21) = 4 cards

If I ever try this (doesn't fly in AL) I think I will start with one card per +1 dex bonus.... just to try it. But I am thinking it may be too bloated. I think your method is likely a better compromise.
On thought, you could put the break points on the odd numbers. (I like to think of ways to make odd ability scores matter...)

 

[Coredump]

This is something that wouldn't happen if the enemy card (or even the player's card) kept showing up multiple times. Each draw of the deck had value, no card was there uselessly. And in my humble opinion, I'd value this sensation much more than trying to be faithful to the rules by adding multiple cards. But, to each its own.

I had not considered that..... that could be a downer.

OTOH.... thinking about it.... it might also help build the tension. As people wait to see who is next, you flip the card and..... haha not telling yet!
But that may also play out as annoying..... hhmmmm.....

Another possibility is I could 'preview' the cards while the player is taking his turn, and remove the 'used' cards until I get to the next 'live' one.

That said, I am not necessarily against 'nerfing' Dex this way, it is already a pretty powerful stat....


Guess playtesting and player talking is in order....