Alternatives to Thug Tactics

[1of3]

Hi.

I have problem with Thug Tactics. It scales terribly with the number of PCs. That was true somewhat for flanking but at least you could try to flank with a single ally.

What other methods can you think of that do not rely on a battle map?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Tricky, it's thematically ganging up on someone to gain advantage.

Perhaps instead, as an action, you could intimidate your opponent and if you succeed you gain advantage on your next attack. Similar to the hiding/attacking strategy but you would use strength vs. wisdom instead of dexterity vs. wisdom.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Hi.

I have problem with Thug Tactics. It scales terribly with the number of PCs. That was true somewhat for flanking but at least you could try to flank with a single ally.

What other methods can you think of that do not rely on a battle map?

Ganging up is it's own reward. Kind of pointless to add insult to injury in this instance. I mean, by the time thug tactics matter the victim is already dead.

 

[Ellington]

You could have it require another creature use an action to set up the sneak attack.

 

[1of3]

Perhaps instead, as an action, you could intimidate your opponent and if you succeed you gain advantage on your next attack. (...)

You could have it require another creature use an action to set up the sneak attack.

Those are already covered by the rules, and do not require a special class feature for the Thug. The first is a contest, the second Aid Another.


What about this one:

Thug's Oportunism
When you attack an opponent in melee who has taken damage since the end of your last turn, you can apply your sneak attack damage. (Even if you do not have advantage.)


- It models ganging up. (Although you might do it with an opportunity attack.)
- It doesn't always work. (Unless your friends have auto-hit)
- It doesn't offer real advantage, which at some point designers said should require an action.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Those are already covered by the rules, and do not require a special class feature for the Thug. The first is a contest, the second Aid Another.


What about this one:

Thug's Oportunism
When you attack an opponent in melee who has taken damage since the end of your last turn, you can apply your sneak attack damage. (Even if you do not have advantage.)


- It models ganging up. (Although you might do it with an opportunity attack.)
- It doesn't always work. (Unless your friends have auto-hit)
- It doesn't offer real advantage, which at some point designers said should require an action.

My suggestion is a contest, yes, but the outcome (grants advantage) is the special feature. Normally you would just intimidate, and that would have a roleplay effect.

Your proposal almost always works (plenty of spells do damage on a save), and the designers want sneak attack to cost an action, not the advantage itself (but one is a means to the other).

 

[VinylTap]

I think the point of 'Thug tactics' was to remove the 'positional' requirement from 'sneak attack', as it can be tough to play, and frustrating having your damage output pinned to a mechanic like that.

I agree its not a great rule as its working now, but I hope the alternative sticks with this focus in mind. As a general rule, i think tying Sneak Attack to advantage is a bad idea as well. its too easy to get, and the math gets weird when you're already getting +3/+4 to your to hit role anyway (from advantage).

I think a good idea would be to increase your crit chance when outnumbered. The chances of you doing severe damage increases in a group-on-one situation.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I think they should give all rogues an Ambush ability that can only be used in the surprise round and does oodles of damage, then scale down the damage of Sneak Attack just a tad. That way, they can let thugs gain advantage with just one flanking partner, a la 3e.

Then, they could give Thief-rogues advantage against a target who attacked someone else (and not the rogue) on their last turn. That sort of models backstabbing (attacking when the enemy's attention is diverted) without actually having to introduce facing or more positional stuff into the game.

All this DOES add up to an awful lot of attacks with advantage for the rogue, but hey, maybe that makes up for the slightly lower BAB than the fighter?

 

[Bow_Seat]

Then, they could give Thief-rogues advantage against a target who attacked someone else (and not the rogue) on their last turn. That sort of models backstabbing (attacking when the enemy's attention is diverted) without actually having to introduce facing or more positional stuff into the game.

This would be cool if it didn't mechanically reinforce the need for the monster to attack the rogue every turn. All of the sudden rogues will be taking attacks from everyone like they were a fighter.

 

[Leatherhead]

This would be cool if it didn't mechanically reinforce the need for the monster to attack the rogue every turn. All of the sudden rogues will be taking attacks from everyone like they were a fighter.

That's only true if there is a metagame reason for the monsters to know that the rogue gets more damage when not attacked, like a mark.