Am I being mean?

[Uller]

My players are NOT min/maxers...making a character as effective as it can be by looking for spells/feats/skills/items that play off eachother really well is not something that interests them (for 3 of them) or it is not something they are good at (for the two others).

Thinking about how an invisible rogue can deliver a touch attack for some serious smack down damage is not what they're about. For instance, the most experienced player...his PC is a fighter2/cleric2 who became lame in his right arm at some point in his life due to a plague. He only survived by swearing allegience to a god (hence the cleric levels). But he's only got an 11 wisdom. I pointed out the problem that gaining more levels in cleric would not give him any higher level spell. But he doesn't care...seriously...Becoming a 3rd level cleric that can't cast 2nd level spells is not a problem for him.

Another character in the group is a Rogue1/Diviner 3...he's totally ineffective in combat (except for the occasional sneak attack with his crossbow). Again, the player doesn't care. He's interested in being a "finder of information." I'm not complaining here...this is their style and they have fun.

However, I _LOVE_ thinking about the rules of the game and how spells, feats and stuff work together in combat is a big part of the fun. I enjoy making NPCs and thinking "This will put a hurt on the party..."

Now, so far...the players have always managed to do reasonably well against my NPCs. I think I balance things fairly well. In the current campaign, we've played 3 or 4 sessions, plus a lot of PBEM between sessions and haven't had a single PC killed (although a few have come close). When I make my NPCs, I don't just take skills, feats and spells that are designed to screw over the PCs. I make the NPCs make sense for whatever their function is.

So here is an example. The party is made up of five 4th level characters, plus a 4th level NPC that occasionally helps them. They are going into the hideout of a goblin warclan in order to capture an important goblin so they can extract some information from him. The clan is lead by a subchief that is a Rog3/Cleric3 with the Trickery and Destruction domains...He'll have three 3rd level lieutenants as well as 30-40 warriors (war1s, Rog1s and a couple cleric 1s). Obviously the PCs will have to approach this situation with caution...don't worry, they won't have to fight the whole hideout at once! They can capture the subchief or any one of his lieutenants and succeed.

However, think about this...here you have a party of marginally effective combatants and when they meet the BBEG, he'll likely be invisible and can deliver a inflict minor wounds sneak attack for 2d8+3+2d6 damage (+3 more if he uses his destruction domain power). I'm not saying I think this is an impossible villian for them to defeat, but if they encounter him with one or more of his lieutenants and a handful of mooks, they'll be in for a seriously deadly fight!

In my experience, players have an uncanny ability to get through stuff like this. In our last game, I had a goblin cavalry fighter/sorcers all set up to deliver a charge attack that would do some serious damage....A well placed ambush rendered him almost totally ineffective...

Whadya'all think?

Here is the goblin subchief:

Dreknar (Goblin Subchief)
Small-size Male Goblin
Rogue3 Cleric3

Hit Dice: (3d6)+(3d8)+12
Hit Points: 42
Initiative: +4
Speed: Walk 20'
AC: 19 (23 with Prot from Good and Shield of Faith)
Attacks: *Unarmed Strike +5; *Dagger +9; *Dagger (Masterwork) +10; *Dagger (Thrown) +9; *Dagger (Masterwork/Thrown) +10; Javelin +9; Dagger and Dagger(Masterwork) +7/+8;
Damage: *Unarmed Strike 1d3; *Dagger 1d4; *Dagger (Thrown) 1d4; *Dagger (Masterwork) 1d4; *Dagger (Masterwork/Thrown) 1d4; Javelin 1d6;
Face/Reach: /5
Special Qualities: Evasion (Ex), Rebuke Undead 3/day, Smite 1/day, Sneak Attack +2d6, Spontaneous casting, Uncanny Dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
Saves: Fortitude: +6, Reflex: +8, Will: +6
Abilities: Str 11 (+0), Dex 18 (+4), Con 15 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 20 (+5), Cha 11 (+0)
Skills: Balance 5; Bluff 4; Climb 1; Concentration 4; Hide 10; Intimidate 5; Intuit Direction 10; Jump 1; Knowledge (Religion) 2; Listen 9; Move Silently 9; Sense Motive 8; Spellcraft 2; Spot 8;
Feats: Ambidexterity, Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
Challenge Rating: 6
Alignment: Chaotic Evil

Possessions: Chain Shirt +1; Unarmed Strike; Dagger; Dagger (Masterwork); Javelin; Periapt of Wisdom +2

Deity: None Domains: TrickeryBluff, Disguise and Hide are class skills.) DestructionYou gain the smite power, a supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with +4 bonus to hit and damage bonus equal to your cleric level once per day.) Spells:
Spells prepared:
Level 0: Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Virtue,
Level 1: Cause Fear, Change Self, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Good, Shield of Faith,
Level 2: Invisibility, Sound Burst, Summon Monster II,

Tacitcs: Dreknar will avoid a stand up fight unless he is sure he can win. He will flee rather than fight if he believes his enemies are a real threat and will gather as many members of his warclan as he can and send them against his enemies instead. Once the battle is engaged, he will use stealth to wade in and attack whatever enemy he deems to be the weakest in hand-to-hand combat. Prior to combat Dreknar will cast Prot from Good, Shield of Faith, and Invisibility. He'll use summon monster II to create a fiendish wolf that he can use to flank an enemy if he needs to (but he prefers just to use his goblin underlings for this task and save the spell for an inflict moderate wounds sneak attack). He'll use Cause Fear on any large fighter-types that threaten him and obsuring mist to escape if needed. Cowardice is one of Dreknar's greatest virtues. He has no qualms about sacrificing his entire war clan in order to ensure his own surivival (of course, most of his underlings have no qualms about sacrificing Dreknar to ensure _their_ survival!)

 

[jester47]

Sounds fine to me. I consider you blessed. I would love to have players that made and ran characters like that. As it is, I have had to curb min maxing with some house rules (character gen and VP/WP system). Several of my players think that most of the feats and classes suck because they don't offer a major advantage over everything else in the game.

I have always thought the game worked better mechanicly if you did not min max villians and the players did not min max PCs. The parts where classes and feats often break things are when players and DMs try to find that special winning combo. If no one looks for it, then there is little chance that you will get a character or a villain that is unstoppable in some way. (that does not IMO include feat chains BTW).

Aaron.

 

[StalkingBlue]

... However, think about this...here you have a party of marginally effective combatants ...

... In my experience, players have an uncanny ability to get through stuff like this. In our last game, I had a goblin cavalry fighter/sorcers all set up to deliver a charge attack that would do some serious damage....A well placed ambush rendered him almost totally ineffective...

Hmm, looks like two contradictory statements to me. At least for now, your players appear to be making up for lack of min-maxing with smart tactics. Maybe your stat and abilities juggling and their tacictal minds will once again balance each other out?

 

[reiella]

If you're having a serious issue with your NPCs typically being 'too tough' for your party, and you don't want to punish the party, consider designing NPCs with NPC Class levels, and possibly just making the NPCs a level or two lower than a challenge for an 'iconic' party.

Immediately though, toss it at them. If they start to suffer significantly more than you'd expect (ie, approaching TPK and you don't want to go that route), impose a -2 or -4 morale penalty on the competition in order to help the party overcome it.

If the party performs tactically proficenctly (ie, they recogonize the threat as a spellcaster and have at least one person set to ready/disrupt them), it should go ok.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

I think you may just need to play to the party's strengths. The rogue/diviner is a finder of info? Let him get some info on the BBEG. IT may just be enough to get them out allright. That actually sounds like a darn neat character.

The fighter/cleric though perplexes me. Couldn't the same concept have been adiquitely covered by a paladin (assuming cha of 12 or better) or simply good role-playing? In your place, I would have a long talk with him about that third cleric level.

At this point, I'd suggest using said goblin (what's the CR for the anticipated encounter with him/bodyguards) and seeing what happens. But unless they've got some good synergy, I'd imagine that you're going to have to cut back on some of the killer combinations, or at least drop the CR a bit.

I had a group of players that, while well built, were tactically unsound. I made sure to drop the CRs of things I was throwing at them as to not kill the group.

 

[Darklone]

Uller, let me say at first that I like your players. The best group I ever played with consisted of 6 idiots who just wanted to play their char who got through the deadliest hack&slash dungeon with horribly suboptimal built characters like the ftr/clr you mentioned. I would think about removing one rogue level from the goblin though to avoid killing one player with one good attack while the others may perchance survive without getting hit too bad.

How are the PCs hitpoints?

Dreknar (Goblin Subchief)
Small-size Male Goblin
Rogue3 Cleric3

Hit Dice: (3d6)+(3d8)+12
Hit Points: 42
Initiative: +4
Speed: Walk 20'
AC: 19 (23 with Prot from Good and Shield of Faith)

Protection from Evil/Good and Shield of Faith will not stack. Looks like you're using 3.0.

Guess that Periapt of Wisdom +2 is a present for the Ftr/Clr ? It will help him with his level 2 spells...

 

[Impeesa]

Challenge yourself - put those minmaxing skills to work and see how low-level a foe you can make that will still put up a challenge to the party.

--Impeesa--

 

[Umbran]

I have always thought the game worked better mechanicly if you did not min max villians and the players did not min max PCs.

That's not terribly surprising, really. The standard point-buy uses 25 points to build characters. While you can get a good score out of that, you don't wind up with great ability in more than one area. That greatly limits the number of paths of optimization available.

Simply put, the iconics areound whom the game was originally designed just aren't that buff

 

[Uller]

The fighter/cleric though perplexes me. Couldn't the same concept have been adiquitely covered by a paladin (assuming cha of 12 or better) or simply good role-playing? In your place, I would have a long talk with him about that third cleric level.

Maybe he'll never take a third level of cleric. I dunno...It perplexes me as well.

As far as CRs/ELs go, I don't know yet. For encounters when there will only be one or two per day, I tend to increase the EL substantially (since the party doesn't have to reserve their resources). I'm not sure how they'll encounter this guy yet. The NPC friend of thiers is a ranger that has been leading a bit of a guerrilla war against the various goblin clans that have moved into the area. So he'll be able to give the PCs lots of info about this subchief and his minions. There are 5 PCs, plus the NPC, all 4th level, which makes the party the equivalent of a 5th level party. Plus they'll have a handful of human War1s and War2s to help them.

The goblin hideout will be set up as several individual encounters ranging from EL 3 (8-10 goblins without any leaders) to an EL 7 with the BBEG and some minions. Now, this EL can go up if the PCs mess up and end up alerting the whole hide out against them. I think they'll do fine.

My real problem I guess is that while I've been really good over the years at balancing an adventure without having to fudge rolls (been DMing for 22 years now...wow I'm getting old!), there is always the odd situation where one of my spells/items works too well and splatters a PC all over the ceiling. I don't want my players to feel like they _have_ to min/max, but at the same time, putting together interesting combinations of abilities and items is one of the parts of the game I really love...

 

[Mark]

As far as CRs/ELs go, I don't know yet. For encounters when there will only be one or two per day, I tend to increase the EL substantially (since the party doesn't have to reserve their resources).

...

...there is always the odd situation where one of my spells/items works too well and splatters a PC all over the ceiling.

That's the nature of the game, these days. It's not always effective to simply substitute fewer but higher level encounters. Some encounters are tough because they can wear a group down in a long combat, and some are tough because they can be quick and dangerous. It's the second type that cannot easily be substituted for several lower level encounters. It's a recipe for a TPK.